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Comment on Gravito-thermal discussion thread by captdallas2 0.8 +/- 0.2

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Steven Mosher, “You lawyers don’t even understand that science isn’t about proof. You don’t prove anything in science.”

That is so true. I think Joe though was commenting more on how Fan presents his science than how science is supposed to be.

Fan is assuming that the maximum entropy principle as it applies to ideal monoatomic gases accurately demonstrates that an isolated atmosphere under the influence of gravity will be “perfectly” isothermal. The way Fan presents his “demonstration” has more of a “proof” feel to it than a more scientific “feeling” argument that includes limits of his model and potential sources of uncertainty etc. etc.. Sackur-Tetrode entropy is generally recognized a being less than ideal at lower temperatures, ie lower molecular velocities, where real gases tend to behave less like ideal monoatomic gases, though it is close enough in the majority of cases.

For Fans case though, covering the Earth with his Mylar MLI could produce an equilibrium temperature in the low thousands of degrees which would pretty much ensure an isothermal equilibrium. Unfortunately, that might inspire some of the Sky Dragon types to believe Fans Demonstration of *no* gravito-thermal effect is actually a demonstration “of” the gravito-thermal effect. I think it has something to do with the assumption that there is Zero potential energy at the lowest level of the atmosphere due to gravity when the mass of the entire volume actually creates the gravitational potential. Kind of a chicken or egg thing as I understand it.

Joan Baez, the physicist not the singer, believes he has a solution but I don’t think he has published it.


Comment on Open thread by Rob Ellison

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This:

A massive campaign must be launched to de-develop the United States. De-Development means bringing our economic system into line with the realities of ecology and the world resource situation.
Paul Ehrlich,

or this:

If a vertical column of an adiabatically enclosed ideal gas is in thermal equilibrium, is the temperature the same throughout the column or is there a temperature gradient along the direction of the gravitational field? According to Coombes and Laue, there are two conflicting answers to the above question:

(1) The temperature is the same throughout because the
system is in equilibrium.
(2) The temperature decreases with the height because
of the following two reasons.
(a) Energy conservation implies that every
molecule loses kinetic energy as it travels
upward, so that the average kinetic energy of
all molecules decreases with height.
(b) Temperature is proportional to the average
molecular kinetic energy.

Which Is the more significant issue for societies and economies?

Obviously the gravito-thermal effect. There is obviously a temperature variation in a real atmosphere – despite immense gobbledegook masquerading as – well – immense gobbledegook.

In an isolated column – this odd mental construct – the physical process tending to isothermal conditions is conduction and convection. The counterpoint has to do with gravity accelerating or decelerating particles. Assuming the walls of the container are at the same temperature initially – the slower particles at the top absorb energy from the surface and faster particles at the bottom transfer it to the bottom surface.

The slower particles at the top of the adiabatic box spend more time at the top than at the bottom tending to disperse particles evenly throughout the volume. Particles move from denser to less dense regions. The classical idea of dispersion of gases through a volume. And I say this with trepidation lest I invoke extreme and quite trivial verbiage.

Where does entropy come into all this? Maximum entropy entails maximum dispersion within the volume. But the molecules in the upper half of the box are still moving at a lower velocity and therefore lower temperature. The gravity effect on velocities is however fractions of a percent of particle velocity at room temperature.

There are far more fundamental issues – that I raised above. These seem to have little interest for denizens. Not to mention baroque pop.

A stronger game plan for humanity – http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/the-united-nations-needs-a-shorter-stronger-game-plan-for-humanity/2014/11/21/a65e14d4-6f76-11e4-ad12-3734c461eab6_story.html?mc_cid=96516c08bf&mc_eid=b51ec965d8.

A critique of current objectives – http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-11-29/un-development-goals-criticised-by-top-world-economists/5927798?mc_cid=96516c08bf&mc_eid=b51ec965d8.

The micronutrient initiative – http://www.micronutrient.org/english/view.asp?x=604

The only response was more silliness from FOMBS. Yes FOMBS – classic liberal values have triumphed in stable democracies and the hope of the world this century is the further spread of these values. This includes free markets bringing peace and prosperity.

e.g. http://www.fraserinstitute.org/uploadedFiles/fraser-ca/Content/research-news/research/publications/free-markets-and-civil-peace.pdf

Fringe progressive extremists like FOMBS and Paul Erhlich notwithstanding.

Comment on Open thread by aaron

Comment on Open thread by Matthew R Marler

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JCH: The stacks at RC are just like the stacks in an old library.

they post recently published work from time to time. It’s worthwhile to check them out now and again.

Comment on Gravito-thermal discussion thread by Rob Ellison

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This does not imply anything about temperatures in the column. These two simple equations – Sackur–Tetrode and the ideal gas equation are statistical expressions of the system state. We get a number for entropy – which is maximum for the equilibrium state and for pressure-volume-temperature relationships. So knowing pressure and volume we can determine temperature of the gas – for instance – and use it to calculate entropy for the equilibrium state.

To imagine that the solution to these equations – if that is in fact what happens – lacking assumptions for pressure and volume – or a coherent approach to the logic of progression in these simple equations – is a mathematical proof of anything at all is a complete sham or utter insanity. Take your pick.

Comment on Open thread by Rob Ellison

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I very rarely venture into the triple plus unscience of blogospheric echo chambers. There are reputable sites containing specialist data compiled at universities and government organisations usually.

e.g. http://ceres.larc.nasa.gov/order_data.php

This is easy to use and well worth understanding the dynamics of outward energy flux.

This one for ENSO.

http://www.esrl.noaa.gov/psd/enso/mei/

This one for ocean and atmosphere indices.

http://stateoftheocean.osmc.noaa.gov/

This one for sea surface temperature.

http://www.ospo.noaa.gov/Products/ocean/sst/anomaly/

I’d recommend staying away from blogs as such – even this one.

Comment on Open thread by Rob Ellison

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Here’s a Sackur-Tetrode calculator.

http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=Sackur-Tetrode+equation

Here’s a ideal gas equation calculator.

http://www.ajdesigner.com/idealgas/

Knock yourself out.

These two simple equations – Sackur–Tetrode and the ideal gas equation are statistical expressions for the system state at equilirium. We get a number for entropy – which is maximum for the equilibrium state and for pressure-volume-temperature relationships. So knowing pressure and volume we can determine temperature of the gas – for instance – and use it to calculate entropy for the equilibrium state.

To imagine that the solution to these equations – if that is in fact what happens – lacking assumptions for pressure and volume – or a coherent approach to the logic of progression in these simple equations – is a mathematical proof of anything at all is a complete sham or utter insanity. Take your pick. Complete nonsense masquerading as – well – complete nonsense.

Comment on Open thread by beththeserf

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Top energy expert warns of collapsing Euro energy supply with Germany’s largest power company withdrawal from conventional
power generation.

http://notrickszone.com/


Comment on Gravito-thermal discussion thread by David Springer

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Thanks. The surface gas would be 15C but does not follow there isn’t a lapse rate so upper atmosphere is less.

Comment on Gravito-thermal discussion thread by David Springer

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Willis you seem to be under the mistaken impression that gravito-thermal effect makes the surface warmer than it would be without gravity. That is not true. The mechanical energy is 100% kinetic at the surface and the temperature the same as if there were no gravitation confinement.

Understand the question before answering please.

Comment on Open thread by timg56

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You do ass really well Don.

And if you understand the difference between observation and advice, you choose to ignore it in order to make gratuitous insults. Nice.

Comment on Open thread by Steven Mosher

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Rud

‘Steven Mosher, not exactly. Yes, Gavin and GISS have extensive documentation. That includes the website GIStemp Tokyo example of how UHI is handled. BUT when you compare properly gridded US raw/final, the reality is the opposite.

WRONG: they supply the data and code.

http://data.giss.nasa.gov/gistemp/sources_v3/

your claim: They dont supply code. YOU ARE WRONG.

There method of handling UHI has these problems

A) they use nightlights
B) they do a bi linear adjustment

################################

And when you compare successive documented official versions, the past IS progressively cooled and the present warmed.

1) THIS is not about the effects of there METHOD, but the
AVAILABLE CODE. you denied this fact
2) The past is not cooled and the present is not warmed.
Over the course of time as more data is added to the sources that GISS uses, and as GISS has improved their method ESTIMATES of the past have cooled in certain areas and estimates of the present have warmed.
These changes were predictable, in fact I predicted them. Going forward, as more data is added in sparse areas you can expect the same.

###########################
Yes, NCDC did publish the documentation on USHCN (and similar GHCN) v2 PHA in 2007. But undocumented changes have been made since that added an additional 0.2C US warming, again by colling the past and warming the present. All three examples illustrated from their own materials in essay When Data Isn’t in Blowing Smoke.

WRONG AGAIN, the prior adjustments for shap, filnet, and tobs were also available. The code remains up to date.

##########################

Hey, if this stuff was so well documented and coded, there would have been no need for BEST. Hard to have it both ways.

WRONG AGAIN.

the purpose of BEST was to do these things.

A) add more data.
B) use only raw data.
C) ESTIMATE the error due to changes ( tobs, station moves, instrument changes ) WITHOUT a HUMAN deciding what to adjust or how to adjust.
This was important because of “doubters” who argued that the hand adjustments of NCDC were somehow bogus. So instead of adjusting stations, we use a statistical, hands off, approach to identifying stations that deviate from the fitted values of the temperature estimate.

Comment on Open thread by timg56

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As for what is with me regarding the vet comment – you were the one wanting us to know how you very nearly made the ultimate sacrifice on numerous occasions.

This is advice – pay better attention to your own comments.

Comment on Open thread by kim

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It’s the Machina wot dunnit.
============

Comment on Open thread by A fan of *MORE* discourse

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blueice2hotsea opines  “A note worth repeating is that only 5 people attended Paine’s funeral in America.”

Lol … two of Paine’s mourners were freed slaves and the minister was an (anti-slavery) Quaker.

Paine’s then-radical ideas regarding freeing of slaves, universal public education, civil liberties, and the institution of social security programs were scorned by his conservative neighbors … yet nowadays Paine’s radical ideas are the law of the land, in the United States and in every advanced nation around the world.

I have always regarded Paine as one of the greatest of all Americans. Never have we had a sounder intelligence in this republic […]

It was my good fortune to encounter Thomas Paine’s works in my boyhood. It was, indeed, a revelation to me to read that great thinker’s views on political and theological subjects. Paine educated me, then, about many matters of which I had never before thought.

I remember, very vividly, the flash of enlightenment that shone from Paine’s writings, and I recall thinking, at that time, ‘What a pity these works are not today the schoolbooks for all children!’

My interest in Paine was not satisfied by my first reading of his works. I went back to them time and again, just as I have done since my boyhood days.

   — Thomas Alva Edison

What a pity indeed, that “Paine’s works are not today the schoolbooks for all children!”, eh Climate Etc readers?

Does Tom Paine’s spirit yet live? and still inspire?

Lol … he world doesn’t wonder!

\scriptstyle\rule[2.25ex]{0.01pt}{0.01pt}\,\boldsymbol{\overset{\scriptstyle\circ\wedge\circ}{\smile}\,\heartsuit\,{\displaystyle\text{\bfseries!!!}}\,\heartsuit\,\overset{\scriptstyle\circ\wedge\circ}{\smile}}\ \rule[-0.25ex]{0.01pt}{0.01pt}


Comment on Open thread by Joseph

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Matthew, nothing gets done in the UN unless all of the permanent members of the security council approve it.

Comment on Open thread by jim2

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12/5/14 6:49 PM ET
OIL______65.84____-0.97
BRENT___68.94____-0.70
NAT GAS__3.802____0.153
RBOB GAS_1.7734__-0.0214

Comment on Gravito-thermal discussion thread by Mike Flynn

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AFOMD,

As you probably know, I don’t follow your links.

However, I can see a representation of a sign which might lead one to believe that Buddhism is a religion. I might disagree, but would you mind expressing your personal definition of religion?

Just curious. I have no intention of arguing – it is of course personal to you. I don’t follow your links, I’m interested in your personal opinion.

Feel free to ignore me if you think it’s a bit personal. I understand.

Live well and prosper,

Mike Flynn.

Comment on Open thread by AK

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<a href="http://dyn.com/blog/zen-and-the-art-of-infrastructure-maintenance-iaas/" rel="nofollow">“Assembly of Japanese bicycle require great peace of mind.”</a>

Comment on Open thread by A fan of *MORE* discourse

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Rob Ellison  “[rants incomprehensibly about thermodynamics and economic]”

Rob Ellison, you forgot to show your work!

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