My whole point is that in gravity a KE+PE gradient serves as a KE gradient would without gravity. The trajectories between collisions would be almost completely linear and my argument applies to that situation, but with a marginal and systematic change in vertical motion that will correlate with the direction the particle comes from only because of the background gradient that weights the probabilities, whether this gradient is in PE or KE. Not a perfect correlation, but enough for a flux. Remember also that this is energy per unit mass, or per particle, that the KE represents. Also, the heat flux itself does not depend on a density gradient, only a temperature gradient, which is energy per particle.
Comment on Gravito-thermal discussion thread by Jim D
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Comment on Week in review by michael hart
It’s a shame that Daniel C. Dennett feels the need to put his name to a petition calling for insults to be rained on those who are not persuaded by the arguments for cAGW.
Perhaps he has simply been to busy writing books and not had enough time to actually look at some of the data, and compare them to the model effusions.
This is, of course, partly my fault for buying the books and reading them. Perhaps if more of his readers stop doing so then it will give him the impetus to get up off his arse and stop letting the circus do his thinking for him.
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Comment on Week in review by AK
But it's OK to deny "Swanson's Law"? <b>That's</b> not <i>"relevant for policy analysis"</i>?
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Comment on Week in review by Joseph O'Sullivan
jim2, he isn’t saying the laws as written are unconstitutional, it’s how the Obama administration is enforcing them is unconstitutional.
Don Monfort I think you are right about how the courts will rule on this issue. It will take a Republican President along with a Republican majority Congress to amend the Clean Air Act.
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Comment on Week in review by thebackslider
What petition?
Are you aware of the latest push to officially label CAGW skeptics as “deniers”?
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Comment on Week in review by R. Gates
What we do know is that the modern TSI peaked around 1960, and by 1980 TSI and tempetatures were beginning to diverge. Does TSI still affect global temperature? Of course, but the net effect is now weaker than anthropogenic effects.
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Comment on Gravito-thermal discussion thread by Pierre-Normand
Jim D,
Let us proceed one step at a time, and with some rigor. Consider a column of gas at equilibrium in a gravitational field. Let us leave open the issue of the temperature gradient for now. Let us just assume that thermodynamic equilibrium has been attained and that therefore the pressure profile, density profile, and temperature profile (whatever it is) all are stationary. Do you agree that (1) there is a density gradient, and that (2) at any given level, the vertical velocity distribution for the particles that are crossing a horizontal plane at this level is exactly isotropic?
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Comment on All megawatts are not equal by AK
<a href="http://aem.asm.org/content/74/17/5276.full" rel="nofollow">Global Transcriptional Response of the Alkali-Tolerant Cyanobacterium Synechocystis sp. Strain PCC 6803 to a pH 10 Environment</a> by Tina C. Summerfield and
Louis A. Sherman <i>Appl. Environ. Microbiol.</i> September 2008 vol. 74 no. 17 5276-5284 <blockquote>Many cyanobacterial strains are able to grow at a pH range from neutral to pH 10 or 11. Such alkaline conditions favor cyanobacterial growth (e.g., bloom formation), and cyanobacteria must have developed strategies to adjust to changes in CO2 concentration and ion availability. Synechocystis sp. strain PCC 6803 exhibits similar photoautotrophic growth characteristics at pH 10 and pH 7.5, and we examined global gene expression following transfer from pH 7.5 to pH 10 to determine cellular adaptations at an elevated pH. [...] <b>Consistent with this was increased transcript abundance of genes encoding carboxysome structural proteins and carbonic anhydrase.</b> [my bold]</blockquote>[...]<blockquote>Cyanobacteria are among the most alkaliphilic microbes, and they frequently dominate alkaline environments, such as soda lakes and microbial mats ([ref's]). In addition to pH, key parameters that include nutrient availability and temperature influence the population composition of phytoplankton communities ([ref]). However, cyanobacterial bloom formation is usually accompanied by an elevated pH that results from increased photosynthesis that depletes CO2. Many cyanobacterial strains are alkali tolerant and grow at pHs ranging from neutral to 10 to 11, so that cyanobacteria both generate and thrive in alkaline conditions.</blockquote>[...]<blockquote>One reason that cyanobacteria have an advantage over other phytoplankton species at high pH is that the carbon-concentrating mechanism of cyanobacteria is better able to utilize bicarbonate than the mechanism in green algae ([ref]).</blockquote>[...]<blockquote>Changes specific to photosynthesis included the upregulation of genes encoding three bicarbonate transport systems, probably in response to a perturbed CO2/HCO3− ratio within the cell. Consistent with this was <b>increased abundance of transcripts of genes encoding carboxysome structural proteins</b> and carbonic anhydrase. [my bold]</blockquote>[...]<blockquote>Compared to other alkaliphilic bacteria, cyanobacteria have two additional complexities, photosynthetic (thylakoid) membranes and the presence of ATP synthase in both thylakoid and plasma membranes ([ref]). Compartments within the cell are maintained at different pHs, and the thylakoid lumen has a pH that is ∼2 units lower than the pH of the cytosol ([ref]). Changes in the external pH have been shown to alter both the cytoplasmic and thylakoid lumen pHs, with an increase in the external pH of 2 pH units resulting in an increase of ∼0.2 pH unit ([ref's]).</blockquote>Quite a few studies have demonstrated that (some) carbonic anhydrases (CA's) of alkalinophiles operate best at pH's around 9-10, it would seem that there are carboxysomes that are also effective in cells growing at such pH's, although the actual pH surrounding the carboxysomes is probably only <i>"∼0.2 pH unit</i>s" higher than in other cyanobacteria.
All of this adds up to a great potential for dragging CO2 directly out of the ambient environment, once the appropriate genetic engineering is done.
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Comment on Week in review by John Carpenter
Go Tribe!
Oh wait….. Are we talking about the Cleveland Indians?
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Comment on Week in review by Fernando Leanme
I was wondering if anybody noticed TSI impact on ENSO strength? It seems to me if the high TSI phase takes place within three years prior to an El Niño this ought to load the western tropical pacific with more energy?
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Comment on Week in review by climatereason
Max
Yes, the other Max would have been a worthy contributor on this subject.
You are right in that hydro is unlikely to be able to provide much more power than it already does. As regards solar power I can confirm that you see many small scale domestic installations in the towns.
However I was very struck by a train journey from Geneva to Zurich last year in as much I saw numerous solar installations on top of chalets in small villages throughout the many valleys we travelled through. What was also very noticeable was that due to the topography of the country (many high mountains and steep valleys) many of the solar power installations were in deep shade and were unlikely to come back into the sun until March, or at the most would only get an hour or so of sunlight (should it be sunny of course)
If the Swiss wish to be self reliant on their own energy, that effectively leaves wind power or nuclear. The former would devastate large areas of this pretty country (although some locations are of course less attractive than others) Some thermal heat is also possible from the rocks,.
In Britain we get around 27% of the stated wind turbine plate power. Britain is supposed to be the windiest country in Europe so I would imagine Switzerland would do worse, especially as mountains are likely to block wind from certain directions.
Here is an item on Swiss wind turbines
http://www.alpiq.com/media-target-group/dossiers/wind-power.jsp
From the article Peter supplied it would seem that nuclear remains popular to the pragmatic Swiss public. Hence my being interested in the original two newspaper articles, as getting rid of nuclear will presumably have to mean an increase in wind turbines.
I suspect the Greens are pushing this policy for wind, but its not universally popular. Most greens still dislike nuclear but it is difficult to see practical alternatives.
tonyb
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Comment on Gravito-thermal discussion thread by Pierre-Normand
One small caveat: Though we could adjust a temperature profile such that hydrostatic equilibrium would be consistent with the lack of a density gradient, this needs no concern us here. That would be a temperature gradient steeper than the adiabatic lapse rate and would yield a convectively unstable column. Further, it would mean that the temperature drops to 0°K at some finite height. The second proposition that I rather ought rather to ask you to agree with is that, in the equilibrium state, the density diminishes with height.
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Comment on Week in review by Max_OK, Citizen Scientist
Ragnarr, why do you think Energiewende will collapse because Germany is behind in meeting its CO2 reduction goal?
Energiewende is expensive because it is a revolutionary change in the country’s infrastructure, and electric bills for consumers are high because they are paying for the change. But apparently the public believes its worth the expense and Merkel is committed to staying on course.
Germany’s economy is in good shape. It can afford to invest in energy independence and the environment.
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Comment on Gravito-thermal discussion thread by Jim D
Pierre-Normand, OK, I don’t understand this question. Isotropic means that the vertical velocity distribution looks like the horizontal velocity distribution in mean and mode. I don’t agree that the vertical velocity in gravity is, in general, isotropic with the horizontal velocity distribution. Not only that, but there would be a correlation between the vertical velocity magnitude and its sign. This is not isotropic. I add that this is a very small deviation, but it can be calculated based on the relative size of PE changes between collisions to the KE of the particles involved.
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Comment on Week in review by jim2
Germany goes nuclear no matter what. So they can claim to abandon nuclear, but use it nevertheless. Nothing like hypocrisy, but not surprising at all from the watermelons. From the article:
…
Germans pay some of the highest electricity prices in Europe – 31 cents per kWhr compared to 17 cents in France and 18 cents in the UK (Economic Times).
Enter MAXATOMSTROM. By switching to MAXATOMSTROM, electricity customers can immediately reduce their carbon footprints by 99%.
But what about the planned German nuclear phase out in 2022?
Thanks to the diversity of the European electricity market, and the abundance of nuclear energy outside of Germany, the phase out is no problem for MAXATOMSTROM.MAXATOMSTROM presently gets their nuclear electricity from Switzerland, the same place that many green energy providers get their hydro power. The company can also buy the electricity from Sweden’s nuclear industry which is actually expanding.
MAXATOMSTROM is confident of their program, pointing to a similar nuclear venture set up in the Netherlands in 2008 (Atoomstroom) that has been very successful. Large users and manufacturers like the reliability of nuclear power as well as its low-carbon out.
It certainly seems like this German venture will work as well. Since its start last week, 3,000 customers have signed up for the nuclear plan (NuclearStreet; Der Spiegel; Stephen Tindale).
…
http://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesconca/2014/12/12/you-can-now-buy-100-nuclear-energy-in-germany/2/
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Comment on Week in review by AK
Now, I'm not saying for <b>certain</b> that "Swanson's Law" will continue to operate for the next 50-100 years, just because it has for the last 50. But only a denier could honestly claim that it <b>won't</b>.
Looks like a good place for <i>"decision-making in the face of uncertainty."</i> There's no certainty that massive investments in nuclear fission won't become "sunk costs" in the face of exponentially cheaper solar power. And there's no certainty that solar power will continue to become exponentially cheaper.
A very good candidate for generator investment in this case is <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combined_cycle#Fuel_for_combined_cycle_power_plants" rel="nofollow">combined cycle turbines</a>:<blockquote>Low-Grade Fuel for Turbines: Gas turbines burn mainly natural gas and light oil. Crude oil, residual, and some distillates contain corrosive components and as such require fuel treatment equipment. In addition, ash deposits from these fuels result in gas turbine deratings of up to 15 percent. They may still be economically attractive fuels however, particularly in combined-cycle plants.</blockquote>This will allow immediate leverage of the low cost of natural gas, along with easy conversion to light oils (free of <i>"corrosive components"</i>) generated by cyanobacterial processes (such as Joule Unlimited's), or methane from conversion of solar/electrolytic hydrogen and atmospheric CO2 when either/both of those processes become cost-competitive.
Given mature distribution technology and infrastructure for storage and transportation of both those energy storage mediums, investment in such power generating technology, arguably the cheapest high-efficiency type available, offers the lowest probability of near-term (or any) sunk costs.
And if it turns out that nuclear fission is the necessary way to go, the energy from that can also be fed into the electrolytic/methane conversion process, allowing much cheaper transport of energy than long-distance electrical transmission.
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Comment on Week in review by Max_OK, Citizen Scientist
climatereason said in his post on December 14, 2014 at 10:57 am
“If the Swiss wish to be self reliant on their own energy, that effectively leaves wind power or nuclear.”
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Tony,
If Switzerland has to import uranium to make fuel for nuclear power plants, the only way to complete self-reliance is renewables. If renewables can’t replace nuclear, Switzerland’s energy security can not be totally in its own hands. I believe it will boil down to how much security the Swiss want and how much they are willing to pay.
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Comment on Gravito-thermal discussion thread by Pierre-Normand
Jim D,
Sorry if I didn’t express myself correctly. I wanted only to focus on the vertical component of the velocity distribution. I meant to ask if you agreed that it is symmetrical with respect to the horizontal plane. I was extending the concept of isotropy to one single dimension — e.g. symmetry of both directions, up and down). The one dimensional projection of a Maxwell distribution of speeds onto any axis is a Gaussian distribution, and its mode is zero. But you answered my question as I intended it. You believe there to be an asymmetry in the vertical speed distribution (a “correlation between the vertical velocity magnitude and its sign”). In that case there would be a net material flux thought the horizontal plane, and hence the density profile would not be stationary throughout the whole column. You may want to reconsider.
Nit pick: velocity is a vector, even in one single dimension, so it doesn’t have a sign. It has a magnitude and a direction.
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Comment on Week in review by climatereason
Max
I think you are right in that Switzerland cant really have an independent energy sector.
Wind is unpopular or impractical due to wind and scenic considerations. Much of Switzerland doesn’t get enough year round uninterrupted sun to use solar panels commercially (there would need to be very large installations in Ticino)
They are using hydro and thermal to about the maximum. And as you say they will have to import Uranium. Which is the least worst option? I suspect importing Uranium from a friendly nation.
Which won’t please the powerful Swiss Greens. So we go round in a circle as they want to get rid of nuclear…
tonyb
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Comment on Week in review by JCH
We’re talking about a country that pays its farmers to farm in a 19th-century style so that tourists can have enjoyable train and driving excursions. I don’t think it will bother them to ay a bit extra to look green.
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