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Comment on On the social contract between science and society by Danny Thomas

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Joshua,
“What is a shame is that he takes such an unscientific approach to examining those points”
Or could he just be practicing what he’s preaching.
” So how about this? As individuals and as a community, let’s listen more to the people and the political leaders who support us and spend less time up front telling them what we know. Relaying our knowledge can come later; we first need to build a bridge of trust that can carry the weight of truth.”


Comment on On the social contract between science and society by Joshua

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Here’s an interesting one:

At the same time, as we’ve observed and studied emerging natural resource shortages, environmental degradation, and vulnerability to hazards, we’ve allowed ourselves to turn into scolds. Worse, we’ve chosen sides politically, largely abandoning any pretense at nonpartisanship

Leaving aside the same basic problem that runs through the whole essay – an identification of trends without any presentation of longitudinal data – we can look here at what it means to “allow [oneself] to turn into scolds.” Does strongly advocating for policy-development that is in line with one’s interpretation of scientific evidence mean that one has allowed herself to be turned into a “scold?”

Here’s an example. A scientist researches and develops an HPV vaccine, which can prevent many unnecessary deaths inf young women. The vaccines get met with opposition that is associated with political ideology. If the scientist aligns herself along political lines, correspondingly, because of what she sees as clearly important policy development being blocked, based on political ideology and not science, does she become a “scold” if she strongly advocates with a political orientation? Has she “abandon[ed] any pretense at nonpartisanship?”

So maybe you don’t think that would = being a “scold” who as “abandon[ed] any pretense at nonpartisanship,” but you think that example is a bad one – in that it may not be applicable to other issues, say climate science. Well, OK. In what ways and by how much would there be differences?

Comment on On the social contract between science and society by Lucifer

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The UN is a political body.
The IPCC is a function of the UN.
Therefore…

Comment on On the social contract between science and society by Joshua

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This is interesting: ==> "While Bill Hooke rightfully raises concerns about the behaviors and motives of scientists, " Hmmm. <i>Concerns</i> about the <strong>behaviors and motives of scientists.</strong> Interesting to note, Judith, that you are a scientist. Also interesting to note that when <i>concerns</i> are raised about your <strong>behaviors and motives,</strong> or those of Fred Singer or other "skeptics," you exploit McCarthyism and Islamic terrorism to complain about being a victim. What, I wonder, might explain when <i>concern</i> about scientists' <strong>behaviors and motives </strong> is done "rightfully" and when it is done wrongfully? Geez. I just can't imagine what might be the explanation. <strong>:-)</strong>

Comment on On the social contract between science and society by Steven Mosher

Comment on On the social contract between science and society by Joshua

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Danny –

==> “Or could he just be practicing what he’s preaching.”

In a sense I agree. Asking the questions is practicing what he is preaching. It’s good. I applaud it, actually. There are many important questions to be asked about the cost and benefits in how our society supports and conducts scientific research.

However, taking an unscientific approach to asking those questions is not equal to practicing what he is preaching, IMO.

Comment on On the social contract between science and society by Joshua

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Danny –

As for this:

==> “As individuals and as a community, let’s listen more to the people and the political leaders who support us and spend less time up front telling them what we know. Relaying our knowledge can come later; we first need to build a bridge of trust that can carry the weight of truth.”

I am an advocate for stakeholder dialog and participatory democracy. Within those paradigms, “expert” information is used in much the way that you described. The structure for dialog is not hierarchical, and flow of information is multi-lateral.

But because I can envision what might work better than what we have now, does not, IMO, support an unscientific approach to examining the pros and cons of the existing paradigm – to the extent that it can even be comprehensively characterized. At any rate, the first step should be to make a comprehensive characterization, not polemicize.

People have been saying “Things ain’t like they used to be” since the dawn of time. And yet, could we argue that on the whole we have progressed?

Comment on On the social contract between science and society by Danny Thomas

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Joshua,

It is if he’s not “telling what he knows” and is instead “listening”. In other words, what is a “scientific” approach to listening if others have questions? He states telling what he knows (is known) can come later. I’m not clear on your beef after the last couple of para of the offering.


Comment on On the social contract between science and society by Steven Mosher

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a nice little explanation of the responsibility of scholars to those that feed them and an explanation that one should both ask questions and find answers to the questions you ask.

questioning is half the job.

Comment on Temperature adjustments in Australia by Nick Stokes

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“Nick, I can only conclude that you have a serious issue in relation to the way you see data. A regression through Turkey Creek would come out fairly flat. It shows the mid-70s cooling. Classic flat central Australian record.”

Well, it’s not just me. Below (from here) is how NOAA sees it.

The fact that my arithmetic agrees with yours is a check that we have the same data. But it doesn’t mean your curve tells anything about climate trend. As my graph showed, it is telling you about the kind of stations (hot/warm) that reported over the years. The individual trends tell a different story.

Comment on On the social contract between science and society by Joshua

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Well, now, here’s a fantastic and amusingly timely quote from Judith’s Twitter link at the top o’ the page:

Climate expert John Christy on funding: ‘No one is paying me to have my view’. Pay attn, Congressman Grijalva

OK. So the essay at the top o’ this post is basically an argument about how a vast amount of scientists are effectively being paid to have a view, and Judith thinks it’s only Grijalva that should pay attention.

The irony-a-palooza at Climate Etc.continues apace.

Comment on On the social contract between science and society by Wagathon

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I seems pretty clear that the sacrifice of the scientific method on the altar of politically-correct consensus is evidence of the deterioration science — Western scientists have been set free to believe whatever they wish — so long as their beliefs are ideologically acceptable.

Comment on On the social contract between science and society by Joshua

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==> ” I’m sure his mother would be very proud.”

Ladies and gentlemen, I bring you the argument of a proud climate “skeptic.”

Comment on On the social contract between science and society by David Springer

Comment on On the social contract between science and society by ...and Then There's Physics

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If you think that you could trust science more if scientists behaved in a way that you regarded as trustworthy and called out people who you regard as having broken that trust, then I have a car to sell you. Trust me, it’s a good car, low mileage, one careful owner.


Comment on On the social contract between science and society by Willard

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Please, AT. Just be thankful for Big Dave’s concerns, or else he’ll break the threading again.

Comment on On the social contract between science and society by ...and Then There's Physics

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Willard,
Yes, point taken.

Comment on On the social contract between science and society by David Springer

Comment on On the social contract between science and society by AK

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Only 12 percent of respondents said they had a lot of trust in journalists to get the facts right in their stories about scientific studies.

There’s one born every minute.

Comment on Blog moderation etc. by canmane

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WordPress is a big pain in the a$$! I can’t get the link button in the editor to work.

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