<blockquote>I like defense, we pay ourselves to defend ourselves. What’s not to like?</blockquote>
To the larger extent, we tax ourselves to defend various foreigners from still other foreigners.
Comment on Intermittent grid storage by opluso
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Comment on Intermittent grid storage by aplanningengineer
AK-I don’t know of any recent estimates for the info you requested (nor a way to get breakdowns from old estimates), but I will agree with your point. That is if you put aside all reservoir cost issues-the hardware for the pumped storage unit would not be prohibitive in itself. However most locations would require a big budget for the civil engineering required.
TVA completed Racoon Mountain in1974 for $300 M for 1.6 GW. Rocky Mountain not too far away in Georgia cost $1.6 billion in 1995 for just over 1GW. Different locations and different challenges, but I’m not sure and not a civil, but strong cost escalation over time attributable to reservoir related costs appears likely,
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Comment on Intermittent grid storage by edbarbar
Well, i suppose you aren’t going to give me two nobel peace prizes, even though you said if someone could come up with one more way =)
This was really a modest thought I’m curious about, and was wondering whether it had any merit, is all.
Your response to my note indicates you are focused on putting electric energy in, and getting electric energy out: you think about electricity as the fundamental unit of exchange. My air-conditioning thought was why does electricity need to be the fundamental unit of exchange? What is really desired is to provide flexibility for when energy is required. Storing ultra cold energy in a material with a high specific heat could help provide flexibility on when energy for a specific purpose is consumed (cooling), though it could only ever after be used for one purpose: producing cooling locally. Statistics are what they are, but I read that 12.5% of at home energy is in cooling, and I suspect with many corporations it’s much more.
While electricity isn’t often used for heating, I’ve had similar thoughts about how to store summer heat for use in winter heating. I’ve even run some experiments, though ran into some issues with wave guides.
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Comment on Intermittent grid storage by Mike Flynn
sciguy54,
Can I buy one for my car? What range would I get? Does it come in pretty colours?
Sounds like a winner to me!
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Comment on Intermittent grid storage by sciguy54
They are in great demand. Most guys with trucks want two.
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Comment on Intermittent grid storage by PA
http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/how_to_prolong_lithium_based_batteries
http://www.homepower.com/articles/solar-electricity/equipment-products/lithium-ion-batteries-grid-systems/page/0/1
The interesting thing is LFP batteries have a maximum recommended temperature of 40°C so especially in California the batteries may have to be located underground or be air conditioned.
There are a number of issues with lithium batteries. The lifetime numbers are based on 80% DOD (requires 25% more batteries). The roundtrip efficiency claimed by Tesla is 92%. This means that for every 100 W delivered to the batteries only 92 W is returned. 8.7% of power supplied to the batteries is discarded. A realistic lifetime of 10 years or less would just be icing on the cake.
Since there was an err in the original calculation the effort will be revisited.
So assuming:
1. 30% backup of actual output (2 1/3 hours at nameplate output)
2. 25% actual output of rated output.
3. 80% DOD (depth of discharge).
4. Average capacity 90% of rated capacity (when it hits 80% they are replaced.
5. 10 year lifetime.
Initial capacity: 6750 kWh/day
Nominal capacity (80%): 5400 kWh/day
Average capacity used (80%*90%):4860 kWh/day
Initial cost (Musk phantom price): $675000 (much less than the windmill)
Effective cost per delivered kWh (assuming incoming electricity is free): 3.8¢.
Actual cost is 3.8¢ + 1.087% of the cost of turbine energy per kWh.
The good news (after correcting a math error in the original calculation) is that battery backup – if you can get them at Musk’s future cost instead of $250 /kWh, is that attaching battery backup to capture badly timed renewable power would make economic sense in most situations.
At the current $250+ per kWh battery systems cost almost much per delivered kWh as the average US power cost (it is probably a pointless exercise).
On another topic.
The availability of windmills is sort of interesting. There seems to be a lot of infant mortality.
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Comment on Intermittent grid storage by justinwonder
We Californians already have the Sword of Damocles hanging over our heads! :)
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Comment on Intermittent grid storage by justinwonder
Opluso,
All in our best interest. The last time we tried to sit one out, WWII, it didn’t work out too well. It is better to put the fire out early. Besides, if we aren’t the global cop, then who is?
Remember the broken windows theory of law enforcement, when evil doers see a lack of order they see an opportunity to misbehave.
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Comment on Intermittent grid storage by brentns1
THORIUM AS AN ENERGY SOURCE
– Opportunities for Norway
https://www.regjeringen.no/globalassets/upload/oed/rapporter/thoriumreport2008.pdf
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Comment on Intermittent grid storage by Jim D
Yes, home distributed storage just needs battery prices to come down, and there is a trend. Also intermittent energy can be backed up with other green energy like biomass burning (or even perhaps BECCS). Using natural gas as a backup rather than primary power also makes it last longer while cutting emission rates. Nuclear is an option in some countries. It is not storage or nothing with renewables. It is cleaner backups first and then storage, as it develops over the next few decades, which will eventually preclude the need for backups. There are a couple of distinct technological stages towards decarbonization. It won’t happen tomorrow, but it can happen gradually.
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Comment on Intermittent grid storage by Jim D
The trends in population and per capita CO2 point to 700 ppm and still rising fast in 2100. Something has to change, whether it is temperature and sea level, or energy sources. The status quo is not an option.
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Comment on Impact of AMO/PDO on U.S. regional surface temperatures by gymnosperm
No doubt, but sometimes you nibble a poop sandwich when there’s nothing else to eat.
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Comment on Heat waves: exacerbated by global warming? by jungletrunks (@jungletrunks)
Some of the earlier historical heat wave references initiated my curiosity to search further about was said about climate a century ago. I found an interesting mix of historical articles about warming climate, heat waves et al (below with some excerpts). There’s some interesting observations describing the tremendous amount of glacial melting that occurred prior to the most significant rise of CO2 and warming in the middle of the 20th century. Also intriguing about this period is how global warming was seen as “…a wonderful climatic alteration”. How times have changed. The first article described climate change as natural variability.
Is Our Climate Changing? 1907
Attributes climate change to variability
(By R. De Courcy Ward, assistant professor of Climatology at Harvard University.)
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/71871866?searchTerm=Climate%20warming&searchLimits=
Receding Glaciers. 1917
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/108604130?searchTerm=glaciers%20melting&searchLimits=
Except over a small area, it is gen-
erally understood, the glaciers of the
world are retreating to the moun-
tains. The glacier on Mount Ser-
miento in South America, which des-
cended to the sea when’ Darwin
found it in 1836, is now separated
from the shore by a vigorous growth
of timber. The Jacobshaven glac-
ier in Greenland has retreated four
miles since 1850, and the East glac-
ier in Spitzbergen is more than a
mile away from its original terminal
moraine. In Scandinavia the snow
line is further up the mountains,
and the glaciers have withdrawn
3,000ft. from the lowlands in a cen-
tury. The Araphoe glacier in the
Rocky Mountains, with characteris
tic American enterprise, has. been
melting at a rapid rate for several
years. In the Eastern Alps and one
or two other small districts the glac-
iers are growing. In view of these
facts we should not be too sceptical
when old men assure us that winters
nowadays are not to be compared
with the winters of their boyhood.
North Pole Melting. 1923
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/168839462?searchTerm=glaciers%20melting&searchLimits=
Science is asking these questions
Reports from ‘fishermen, seal hunters,
and’, explorers who sail the seas
around ‘Spitsbergen and the eastern
Arctic all point to a radical change
in climatic conditions, with hitherto
unheard-of high temperatures on that
part of the earth’s surface.
Observations to that effect have
covered the last five years during
which the warmth has been steadily
increasing.
In August the Norwegian
Department of Commerce sent an ex-
pedition to ‘Spitsbergen and Bear
island under the leadership of Dr.
Adolf Hoel, professor of geology in
the University of Christiania, the
object in view being to survey and
chart areas productive of coal and
other minerals. The expedition sailed
as far north as 81 deg. 29 min. N. lati-
tude in ice free water. Such a thing,
hither to, ‘would have been deemed im-
possible.
Seals Disappear.
Seals which used to be plentiful in
those seas, have almost entirely dis-
appeared. It would seem as if the
ocean must have become uncomfort-
ably warm ‘for some of its denizens
which formerly frequented those lati-
tudes, causing them to flock north-
ward towards the Pole.
Fur Clothes Too Warm.
Not only are the seals and polar
bears ‘finding the climate unpleasantly
warm for them, but it is said that the
Eskimos in some localities are com-
plaining and are finding their fur
clothes too warm for them.
…other latitudes will
also experience a wonderful climatic
alteration, and climates all over the
world may become steadily and
gradually warmer.
A Warmer World. 1932
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/23150667?searchTerm=greenland%20%20melting&searchLimits=
SOME great world change is taking
place on the Antarctic Continent.
Its glaciers are shrinking. Comman-
der L.A. Bernacchi, who visited the
South Polar land 30 years ago, says
that the Great Ice Barrier which
fronts the continent with a wall of ice
for 250 miles has receded at least 30
miles since it was first seen and sur-
veyed.
Sir James Ross, who went out on
the earliest Antarctic expedition of the
nineteenth century, and those who fol-
lowed him, left clear descriptions of
this tremendous ice frontage and its
position. It was a cliff 150ft. high and
1000ft. thick. But now it appears to
be continuing its century-long process
of shrinking; and that process may
have been going on for centuries.
Greenland Glaciers Melting. 1940
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/92656067?searchTerm=glaciers%20melting&searchLimits=
Is the Arctic climate becoming more
temperate? Remarkable new informa-
tion, given by the famous Swedish
authority, Professor H. Wilson Ahl-
mann, in a lecture to the Swedish
Geographical Society, suggests that
this may be the case.
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Comment on Heat waves: exacerbated by global warming? by kcom1
<I>"Classic example"</I>
And that's the fault of "capitalism" exactly how?
Meanwhile, in the Soviet Union and other decidedly non-capitalist countries (known for not cutting corners and long term thinking, don't you know) there were decades upon decades of shoddy housing construction. Result: every time there's a major earthquake tens or hundreds or thousands of unnecessary deaths are tallied. I just don't understand how they could keep building that same way, what with all their non-corner cutting. Is that a classic example of the shortcomings of socialism?
Let's just stipulate that corner-cutting is a known behavior in all corners of humanity, irrespective of political ideology. How about it?
Were these dead <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_pet_food_recalls" rel="nofollow">Canadian pets</a> victims of capitalism or socialism?
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Comment on Heat waves: exacerbated by global warming? by catweazle666
“If you want to get your point across, that global warming does not cause warming,”
Utter drivel as usual.
Stop making stuff up.
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Comment on Heat waves: exacerbated by global warming? by Steven Mosher
J*shua
Please show some civility and address me as Steven.
“Judith’s advocacy is a broad-based advocacy. There are different kinds of advocacy and if she doesn’t specify to very specific policies does not mean that she doesn’t advocate.”
1, This is not evidence that she does advocate.
2. Again, you say broad based because you have no details.
And it certainly doesn’t mean that she isn’t “political” or that she engages in “political messaging.”
1. Nor does it mean that she is
If someone uses unspecific and relative terms, such as “advocacy” and “forceful,” and then arbitrarily defines them on his/her own terms in order to support a self-serving application, he/she can wall oneself off from deeper examination of their biases.”
1.. Really, you are free to provide evidence. you have not
2. Whether she waves it off or not is NOT THE ISSUE.
3. the issue is you made a claim. without evidence.
I would rather see people engage by first defining terms and carefully examining for related biases.
1. GO ahead. nobody is stopping you
2. THAT is what I am asking U to do
==> But we have a post TODAY.
I wasn’t speaking in reference to the top post and none of my comments were directed to the top post, but to Judith’s subsequent comments.
== “Laden pooped on the thread, clean it up or prove his case.”
I offer no defense of Greg. From what I’ve seen, which isn’t much, he can make some god-awful arguments – on a par, if not often worse, than many of the arguments I see here made by “skeptics.”
1. So explain your reluctance to address his bad argument.
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Comment on Heat waves: exacerbated by global warming? by jungletrunks (@jungletrunks)
A few more; including a couple in the mid 19th century, it’s just a fun read for those:
WORLD GROWING WARMER. 1922
…the world, and particularly
the Northern Hemisphere, is growing warmer. The process, he says, is rather a slow one but it is none the less steady, and of late it seems to have accelerated to some extent. If we possessed records of the weather since the beginning of the Christian era it is certain that the temperature over the whole of Europe and North America would show a startling rise.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/1845493?searchTerm=global%20warming&searchLimits=
CHANGING CLIMATE OF EUROPE.
WINTER BECOMES WARMER. 1926
The climate of Germany and that of central and northern Europe is slowly changing. German physicists predict that the winters in that part of the world are gradually to become warmer and the summers cooler.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/67166266?searchTerm=global%20warming&searchLimits=
Whole Earth Seems To Be Warming Up
1947
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/49326442?searchTerm=Earth%20heating%20up&searchLimits=
South Pole Warming Up.
1906
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/61454507?searchTerm=Climate%20warming&searchLimits=
What is The World
Coming To? 1939
Scientists have confirmed the fact that the Arctic regions around Spitzbergen are warming up at the rate of approximately one degree in every two years.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/69638689?searchTerm=global%20warming&searchLimits
EARTH’S CHANGES.
1885
PROF. M. RAMUS communicates to La
Jfouveilte Jievue an article on the earth and
its changes, the glacial epoch, and the final
disappearance of ice
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/3448483?searchTerm=Earth%20warming&searchLimits=
HOW THE SEASONS ARE BEING
REVERSED. SCIENTIST’S EXPLANATION
1906
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/151831195?searchTerm=global%20warming&searchLimits=
FREAK WEATHER IN LONDON
1943
It was the wettest January for 40
years, yet the warmest day temper-
ature was the second highest for 85
years.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/92620339?searchTerm=global%20warming&searchLimits=
CHANGES OF CLIMATE
1864
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/60557034?searchTerm=Climate%20warming&searchLimit
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Comment on Heat waves: exacerbated by global warming? by catweazle666
nebakhet: “temperatures weren’t higher 1000 and 2000 years ago”
Wrong.
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Comment on Heat waves: exacerbated by global warming? by Steven Mosher
Willar
“Where did I concur anything on today’s post?”
I am taking your silence as assent to Laden’s argument about Judith’s
messaging goal.
Please feel free to excoriate him OFF YOUR HOME TURF
Otherwise I have no good reason to assume that you disagree with him.
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Comment on Heat waves: exacerbated by global warming? by willard (@nevaudit)
> I am not a fan of emissions trading.
So you don’t like emissions trading. That surely means there’s no politician that have policies that you’re in agreement with, Judy.
Wow indeed.
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