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Comment on Is the EPA’s Clean Power Plan legal? Lawyers and law professors disagree by Stephen Heins

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Judith,

John Sutter of CNN did an editorial today called “We can’t ignore climate change skeptics–even if we really, really want to.” Like many believers, Sutter doesn’t seem to realize that there are major differences between Skeptics and Deniers. Anyway, the moral of the story is that much of the major media has the same problem, which means the U.S. electricity sector is facing a thankless task in the face of vocal environmentalists.

http://spark.fortnightly.com/fortnightly/state-utility-commissioners-ground-zero

S


Comment on Is the EPA’s Clean Power Plan legal? Lawyers and law professors disagree by omanuel

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The real question is whether or not there are legal constraints on the executive branch of government now.

Comment on New research on atmospheric radiative transfer by aaron

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I also have insulation to keep my house cool in the summer.

Comment on Week in review – science edition by stevenreincarnated

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No, that’s the result of a total of 5 runs so most of the natural variability has canceled out.

Comment on Is the EPA’s Clean Power Plan legal? Lawyers and law professors disagree by George Klein

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This result doesn’t surprise me. Lawyers always disagree on everything. The split between the practicing attorneys and the academic attorneys is troubling.

One critical thing is this: In court, one can NEVER predict what a judge (much less nine Supreme Court Justices) will do or decide.

George Devries Klein, PhD, PG, FGSA

Comment on New research on atmospheric radiative transfer by angech2014

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Chris , Chris, Chris,

“The greenhouse effect requires air (aloft) colder than the surface to replace warm, intense surface radiation with “colder” more feeble emission to space.”

James B. Shearer says: 27 Feb 2005 at 6:51 PM Eli,
Gavin is arguing above that adding greenhouse gases would cause the stratosphere to cool even if the stratosphere was not being warmed by the adsorption of UV and that this is the explanation of stratosphere cooling. I am arguing that this is incorrect if all warming was from below there would be no cooling.

Gavin, the gradient increases but the fixed point is the top of the atmosphere not the effective radiating level. As a result all layers warm with the amount of warming increasing as you move towards the surface. This means the effective radiating level rises.

Consider the top of the atmosphere as an arbitrarily thin gray body. Looking down from this layer we see the earth radiating at its black body temperature, TB. Looking up we see space at near absolute zero. So this layer will have temperature ((TB**4)+0**4)/2)**.25 or (.5**.25)*TB or .84*TB as claimed above. If the top layer is not arbitrarily thin but instead has emissivity e then its temperature will be TB*(2-e)**(-.25). In either case the temperature is independent of the details of the temperature structure below, the key point is that the total outgoing radiation must balance the incoming solar radiation.

Roy W. Spencer says: 10 Dec 2004 at 1:53 PM
1. The stratosphere does NOT have a positive lapse rate…it is negative. A positive lapse rate is one in which temperature decreases with height. That’s why it’s called a “lapse” rate.

Basically at TOA all outgoing radiation must balance all incoming radiation.
Despite the stratosphere being thinner and higher the energy going through it is the same as the energy being emitted from the surface.
If the lower atmosphere is greenhouse hotter, the upper atmosphere must be cooler so the total radiation out equals that in.
A bigger question is does the hotter lower atmosphere have to heat up the sea?
As you can see the ground can be hotter than the air but it does not build up in heat once it is in balance.

Comment on New research on atmospheric radiative transfer by captdallas2 0.8 +/- 0.3

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angech, “A real life Ripley’s believe it or not moment.”

There is an Antarctic warming/not/warming/not series as well. Finding Antarctic cooling proportional to rest of the globe CO2 related warming would have been a “signature” of GHE related impact. Setting out to create warming where the physics should have told them there would be none or cooling, is just another humorous example of “belief system” science.

Comment on Week in review – science edition by stevenreincarnated

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Internal variabilty of course I meant to say.


Comment on New research on atmospheric radiative transfer by angech2014

Comment on A key admission regarding climate memes by Danny Thomas

Comment on New research on atmospheric radiative transfer by hockeyschtick

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Turbulent Eddie, thanks for your reply. I’m very familiar with the conventional n layer Arrhenius radiative GHE, have been studying it for over 6 years now, and have over 300 posts on the reasons why it confuses cause with effect. Obviously only one of these 2 greenhouse theories can possibly be correct, otherwise the 33C GHE would be double (66C):

1. The Arrhenius 33C radiative GHE
2. The Maxwell/Clausius/Carnot gravito-thermal 33C GHE (which preceded the Arrhenius GHE by 24 years & I’ll let you decide which of these physicists you choose to believe)

I can’t post the 300 links here on all the reasons, and won’t try to monopolize Dr. Curry’s site with another long comment, but ask you to consider the following:

Over 100 of the top rocket and atmospheric scientists produced the 1976 US Standard Atmosphere document, which remains the gold standard today. The description document is an absolute goldmine of basic mathematical atmospheric physics & has 50 pages describing why the entire atmospheric profile surface to 100km is a linear function of kinematic viscosity (which has absolutely nothing to do with concentrations of GHGs), and contains the only 1D atmospheric model ever verified with literally millions of observations.

Yet, they never did one single radiative transfer calculation for any greenhouse gas or the atmosphere as a whole in their computations of the entire atmospheric temperature/pressure/thermal conductivity profile from the surface to edge of space. In fact, they calculated the effect of CO2 as negligible & then completely discarded it from their mathematical calculations & model. Please take a look, since it provides overwhelming evidence that the gravito-thermal 33C GHE is correct and that GHG radiation is the EFFECT of, and not the CAUSE of the entire 33C GHE. Here is the entire document:

http://hockeyschtick.blogspot.com/2014/12/why-us-standard-atmosphere-model.html

So, can you, or anyone else, tell me why radiative transfer calculations do not appear even one single time in the entire 1976 US Standard Atmosphere document (or in the International Standard Atmosphere document, which uses the exact same mathematical derivation)?

Comment on Is the EPA’s Clean Power Plan legal? Lawyers and law professors disagree by Wagathon

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The EPA’s labeling of CO2 as a poison is an example of pseudo-intellectual, anti-business McCarthyism. Fueling fears of sea level rise is the real WATERGATE. The EPA should just forget about the facts and make human-caused sea level rise illegal. That will stir up chaos. <blockquote>Serial sovereign defaults [e.g., Greece] and further severe global economic recession seem unavoidable. In these conditions, the ongoing obsession over AGW is looking more and more like a mental disorder, not unlike the mass manias of the Middle Ages… [where] angry mobs may be only too willing to accord full credit to false prophets. (Walter Starck)</blockquote>

Comment on Week in review – science edition by stevenreincarnated

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I assume it has also had the drift corrected since that is standard procedure fior modol runs that appear to exhibit drift. Basically any possible internal variability from the model has been minimized and we are left with a curve fitting exercise.

Comment on Is the EPA’s Clean Power Plan legal? Lawyers and law professors disagree by RiHo08

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The organization and implementation of a Progressive agenda is breath-taking. A clear strategy to controlling state and Federal Government which will saddle the American economy with high debt and a litany of mandates, all of which come from edicts or a corroborating majority.

Too late to undo Obamacare except to eliminate it entirely. Politically hard to do.

To late to rewrite the Clean Air Act and its amendments that would limit its cancerous growth. Only a sunset rule would do such a thing.

And certainly too late to undo the Clean Power Plan as it already has too many entanglements of agendas, self-interest parties, and a control over a complicit media. Not much light will get out of this box.

My cynicism is tempered because in our history the reversal of Prohibition laws against alcohol. The foundations for 1920 US Prohibition included a pietistic Protestantism, and “coincided with the advent of women’s suffrage, with newly empowered women as part of the political process strongly supporting policies that curbed alcohol consumption.” (Wiki) If we substitute the CAGW religion for pietistic Protestantism and the Progressive branch of liberalism with women’s suffrage we may see similarities to Prohibition. 13 years later, Prohibition was abolished. The harm done was a legacy of organized crime. The harm done by the impending policies and edicts by our President, more likely than not will be the burden of debt left to our grandchildren who will toil in its shadow in spite of more pleasant weather a hundred years hence.

I am encouraged that the American people will eventually see through the climate scare on their way to a brighter future and do not have to be led by their noses as the present establishment acts as if it were necessary.

Comment on New research on atmospheric radiative transfer by aaron

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No, it’s unknown.

It varies by season, location, and climate regime. Cloud cover, precipitation frequency, increased mixing can all overwhelm the increase in water vapor at the surface. Chemical processes could even come into play. (What are sources for stratospheric water vapor?)

See comments below by PA and TE.


Comment on New research on atmospheric radiative transfer by Danny Thomas

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Seems to be a bit of a hole in that response, right? Did I miss follow/understand/apply that there is some “offset” via the effects as observed in Antarctica?

Comment on New research on atmospheric radiative transfer by angech2014

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Paul Linsay | July 7, 2015 at 9:11 pm |
” The peak temperature at the equator will be 394 K at high noon.”
No.
O c IS 273.16 K.
394 K is 121 C.
Maximum insolation at 12.00 noon so maximum incoming energy ie highest heat in but but peak temperature will be a little later due to heating of already hot air so later in afternoon.
Do not believe you can get 121 C temperature anywhere without a very strong magnifying glass. Happy to be corrected though.

Turbulent Eddie | July 7, 2015 at 8:53 pm | How does CO2 raise the temperature of the tropopause and then immediately become a cooling agent of the stratosphere?
This is an important question.I started to write a reply but it becomes very detailed.
See what Gavin said in 2004.
Very, very, very complicated and even then he got it wrong though he was in very good company.
Will reread your effort. Thanks

Comment on Is the EPA’s Clean Power Plan legal? Lawyers and law professors disagree by Stephen Heins

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And, probably the independence of federal agencies and State Rights.

Comment on A key admission regarding climate memes by Willard

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Danny, after being wrong about me, ClimateBall, the concept of meme, and the usages of quotation marks (and that’s just on this thread alone), now quotes an example that contains an “if”, reinforcing my point that CAGW is a strawman and showing he has not read the end of my comment.

To top this, he uses the “wordy” and “not science” epithets to describe a comment where most of the words contained were not mine, but Texas State meteorologist’s.

Go Team Denizens!

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No more Lakoff for Danny. Time for him to own his ClimateBall.

Comment on Is the EPA’s Clean Power Plan legal? Lawyers and law professors disagree by ordvic

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And maybe even more interesting that the supreme court is divided by political ideology rather than legal pragmatism.

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