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Comment on Ins and outs of the ivory tower by mwgrant

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So you drift a little further,Willard. I imagine a number of folks here are aware of a number of stories from that time. My point is I wrote regarding a particular current post by Hans but originally and when replying to Vaughn. You had to go elsewhere and even then provide a less than complete quote–for the sake of your beloved and worthless climatebrawl, obtuse . I simply show the context of your partial quote–concluding remarks on one the presentation slides. Next you go elsewhere and start on a Soon story.

Here is my quote from your Wikipedia article:

This page was last modified on 2 September 2015, at 13:54.

Oh, well at least the approach is predictable. Guess I’ll use my predictable response…zzzz


Comment on Ins and outs of the ivory tower by mwgrant

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post by Hans but originally and when replying to Vaughn

->

post by Hans both originally and when replying to Vaughn

Comment on Ins and outs of the ivory tower by Daniel E Hofford

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Why do reply buttons appear on some comments and not others. Is it by design or is it fixable?

Comment on Ins and outs of the ivory tower by Daniel E Hofford

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Mike Mellor…”This requires scientists to abandon their other duty, as humans, to pursue what they see as the greater good. Which is the definition of morality.”
Pure bias.

Comment on Ins and outs of the ivory tower by Steven Mosher

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Vaughan

““Scientists are social actors embedded in their cultural environment; they have values and preferences, some have well-meant agendas. They are led by these preferences when choosing their field of interest and formulating their hypotheses, and when deciding if evidence is sufficient for accepting or rejecting their hypotheses.”

Scientists are social actors Embedded. In-der- welt-sein. What’s that mean? It means, that the Ivory tower is an illusion. The idea that you
can somehow separate yourself or divide yourself from being a social animal who is embedded in the world, is misguided.

Some kids wanted to be Spock. But even spock has Pon Far

and well, there is this

and the ladies man

Still the ivory tower is a nice ideal. Comes the question, which is more valuable, your humanity or the truth? There is a funny notion that the truth is something a deep thinker finds after a long period of isolation.
You know the stories. You also know guys still in their mom’s basement.

The other key element is the decision over whether there is enough evidence. “They are led by these preferences when choosing their field of interest and formulating their hypotheses, and when deciding if evidence is sufficient for accepting or rejecting their hypotheses.”

You take some data. You fit a curve. The data is explained. Of course it could be something else. Your critics will always point out that it could be something else. Logic tells you it could be something else. So when and how do decide that enough evidence is enough.. the cultural norm of 95%?

Having observed that the ivory tower is just a metaphor, just an ideal that can’t be achieved, what next? I’m not sure what follows, a descent into raw politics where anything goes? Politics is like wrestling pigs in the mud. Does it follow that I should wrestle pigs merely because the ivory tower is an illusion? Sorry for speaking in metaphors, If scientists should avoid the pig wresting that is poltics can they at least enjoy watching the fights and cheering for their side?

These are real questions, not arguments disguised as questions.

Comment on Ins and outs of the ivory tower by Daniel E Hofford

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Willard. “Therefore one should stay out of politics unless one advocates for liberty, autonomy, and overall individualism. ”

That is exactly right. Though I’m sure you don’t see it. My bias is not to use you as a means to my ends. For this you think I should apologize? My bias is to respect your autonomy. For this I should apologize? My bias is to grant every human being equal status before the law and to recognize every individual as the owner of his own life and having the right to make decisions in how his life is to be used and spent. That his life is for his ends and no one else’s. For this I should apologize?
If you tell me that you believe in and pursue a policy of liberty, autonomy, and overall individualism, you have told me that I am safe from your machinations, that you are not a threat to my life and well being. This worries you? You would be very fortunate to run into a lot of people with this bias.
Liberty, autonomy and overall individualism are truths I hold to be self- evident. That is, these are axiomatic to everything that follows. They are the foundation upon which my morality is built. They declare who I am.
In mathematics we can offer proofs for what we claim. In science we can offer data and reasoning.
The only thing we can do as humans is declare our biases, our axioms, our foundational principles.
I’m happy to expose my bias that those who advocate liberty, autonomy and overall individualism hold the least threat to the lives of their neighbors. Or to anyone.
What are the axioms, the self-evident truths that a Progressive, a Socialist, an authoritarian or collectivist would posit? An environmentalist? What is the threat level to their neighbors?
Whose biases do you think you have to be most worried about?

Comment on Ins and outs of the ivory tower by Daniel E Hofford

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yr’ll
likely act less
like an activist
-ends-justify-the
-means-axx-hole.

And therein lies the difference that makes all the difference!

Comment on Ins and outs of the ivory tower by Don Monfort

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You know that the so-called climate science has been co-opted by the radical left-loon greenies, yimmy. Do you seriously expect the rest of us, the 7 billion, to just roll over? Try to think of something other than that Big Tobacco BS, yimmy. It ain’t working for you. Tell us about the polar bears, again.


Comment on Ins and outs of the ivory tower by climatereason

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David

You link to yet another pay walled study. It appears to have been funded to the tune of $368,000 by the NSF which I take to be a govt body which appears to have an annual budget of 7.3$ billion.Is that correct?

http://grantome.com/grant/NSF/AGS-1304309

If so, should publicly funded material be available to the public without them having to pay for it again? I have no problems with publicly funded material, just that it is only accessible to a small group of people.

What proxies were used?

tonyb

Comment on Ins and outs of the ivory tower by David Appell

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Tony: I link to the science that is I know of.

It’s not my problem if you can’t access it. I don’t like paywalls anymore than you do, but I understand why they exist. I find other ways to get the papers, like writing to an author. In this case, the paper’s PDF was easily found via Google.

Comment on Ins and outs of the ivory tower by Geoff Sherrington

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The main part of my science career in Australia was in the mineral exploration, mining, forestry and large manufacturing sectors, all at once, on world scale projects. I was in industry.
From time to time we found a need for a number of like companies to club with us to buy expensive equipment and sponsor academia and CSIRO, by grants, to use and develop further applications for the equipment. That way, we had access to a number of equipment items with dedicated operators.
Soon, this was formalised by AMIRA, for Australian Mining Industry Research Association. AMIRA was supported by a dozen or so major industry players who were in deadly competition with each other but able to work cooperatively when it was obviously common sense to so do.
In situations like this, bias does not really enter the equation.
It is unfortunate that academia has turned its back on many funding opportunities like this. It is appalling that there is now this poisonous attitude of “being tainted by the dirty hand of industry”. That thought process is so alien to real life that I am surprised that it exists.
Time for ivory tower to clean its dusty cupboards, I suspect.
Some of us in industry are really nice people.

Comment on Ins and outs of the ivory tower by beththeserf

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My bias is not to use you as a means to my ends. For this you think I should apologize? My bias is to respect your autonomy. For this I should apologize? My bias is to grant every human being equal status before the law and to recognize every individual as the owner of his own life and having the right to make decisions in how his life is to be used and spent. That his life is for his ends and no one else’s. For this I should apologize?

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Comment on Ins and outs of the ivory tower by Geoff Sherrington

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Here is a letter published by the main national newspaper here in Australia in February, 2006. I wrote it after listening to matters that were supposed to be scientific, as delivered by a couple of CSIRO people.

In retrospect, it sent a shock through the readership. Even sceptics were frightened by it. Then many of them became overt sceptics.
The letter might have been a step in the evolution of public scepticism here. I stand by every word of it, nearly a decade later.

“THERE is an excellent argument for curbing the public statements of scientists like those from CSIRO, a former employer of mine. Scientists, like the public, cover a spectrum of beliefs, some of which are based on emotion rather than science. There are greenie scientists in CSIRO and there are honest ones. Human nature being what it is, there are private agendas pushed by CSIRO people that would make your jaw drop. An example is the selection of Australian weather recording sites used to construct the temperature measurements of the continent, which play a big part in southern hemisphere weather models. From the beginning, most sites that showed little or no temperature rise or a fall from, say, the 1880s to now were rejected. The few sites selected to represent Australia were mainly from capital cities and under suspicion for “heat island” effects. I could give example after example as it was one of my employment functions to distil the best results from the bogus on many matters related to energy/greenhouse/nuclear etc. I found few truly objective submissions among those masquerading as science.”

Comment on Ins and outs of the ivory tower by Nick Stokes

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“An example is the selection of Australian weather recording sites used to construct the temperature measurements of the continent, which play a big part in southern hemisphere weather models. “

I don’t believe CSIRO had anything to do with that.

Comment on Ins and outs of the ivory tower by Faustino aka Genghis Cunn

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As an economic policy adviser to heads of government in the UK and Australia, I was at the coalface as regards issues of impartial or politically-biased advice. Like most others I’ve known in that field, I agreed with van der Voosen’s maxim that “The search for the truth requires that researchers do their best to honestly assess and evaluate all the relevant available evidence.” My role was to sufficiently research an issue so as to give well-based advice, consider what options were available to deal with the issue, and present advice in such a way as to facilitate a decision. I often had a preferred option, but I don’t think that would ever have been apparent from my papers and briefs, unless I was specifically asked for a recommendation. The politics of the government I advised were irrelevant to my advice.

One of my first roles in Canberra in 1985 was as part of a Ministerial Taskforce on Longer-Term Economic Growth, chaired by Industry Minister Senator John Button. One of the first things that Button said to the group of economists and other specialists was that we should forget ALP policy and ACTU policy, what the government wanted to know was what policies were best for the people of Australia as a whole. That attitude helped to underpin the success of the Hawke government.

(It has not, unfortunately, been present in recent Australian governments, and I was mocked in Queensland for not joining the (Labor) party, where partisanship and biased advice was essential for career advancement.)

For the record, I joined the UK Labour Party in 1965. At the time I was in the central office of the UK energy utility, the Central Electricity Generating Board, a GOE rather than a political entity. About 2-3 weeks later, before I had been active, I was near-fatally injured when run down by a car. That was the end of my political involvement.

Judith, like you, “I find the APS argument for civic engagement by scientists to be compelling.” Such engagement does not a priori involve any element of advocacy or bias. And I applaud Kniss’s good sense.

If as an adviser to Prime Ministers in the crucial field of economics, I could avoid partisanship and advocacy, surely those in academia should be able to do the same?


Comment on Ins and outs of the ivory tower by Faustino aka Genghis Cunn

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An old friend of mine is an assistant teacher of Vipassana meditation, committed to honesty, integrity and the well-being of all. (He also runs a highly–successful landscape business in Dubai.) We have many exchanges on Facebook. He responded recently: “Always on seeing it as it is Mike. That’s why I value reading your comments.” I replied: “Thanks, Laith, though I warn that I do not always see things with clarity and without bias.” To avoid falling into the trap of advocacy requires self-awareness and eternal vigilance.

Comment on Ins and outs of the ivory tower by Faustino aka Genghis Cunn

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Douglas, I have a book signed by Suzuki (in the 1980s). I did begin to initiate an argument with him on some things at the time, but he was totally exhausted from his schedule and there were many pressing behind me, so I let it go.

Comment on Ins and outs of the ivory tower by Faustino aka Genghis Cunn

Comment on Ins and outs of the ivory tower by Faustino aka Genghis Cunn

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Daniel, there’s a two-three-tier system, adopted after infinite sub-threads made comments sections unreadable. Much better with the constraint. Just identify the post to which you wish to reply if it doesn’t have its own Reply button.

Comment on Ins and outs of the ivory tower by Faustino aka Genghis Cunn

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Yes. In my view it is important that each one of us seeks to understand the world as it really is (and as it manifest in our own minds and bodies, which is all we can directly experience), to develop a capacity to see things clearly, and not to force our views or perspective on others..Morality is developed through understanding.

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