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Comment on Garth Paltridge held hostage (?) by the uncertainty monster by gbaikie

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“One very specific example is the pressing need to obtain more definitive polarimetric measurements of aerosol radiative properties, a pressing need that is still going unfulfilled.

Why does the author rate this as the highest priority but makes no mention of the damage function (damage costs per degree of warming). This item has the highest uncertainty for policy, yet it has had little attention. Why? Is it bias? If we get more information might it become apparant that warming is not such a big issue after all?”

That could a dangerous aspect for climate gravy train.


Comment on Garth Paltridge held hostage (?) by the uncertainty monster by Jim D

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It is very clear he refers to unforced natural variability in his article. This implies that there may also be a naturally forced variability, as of course there is. There is also anthropogenically forced variability. I think that covers everything.

Comment on Garth Paltridge held hostage (?) by the uncertainty monster by dp

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Is this a spoof? It reads like a manufactured stereotypical alarmist characterization. All platitudes, no cows.

Did Peter Gleick write this?

Comment on Garth Paltridge held hostage (?) by the uncertainty monster by Jim D

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As a scientist, Lacis was trying to rationalize the skeptic thought process, but I don’t think there is any rationalizing that works.

Comment on What global warming looks like (?) by The Skeptical Warmist (aka R. Gates)

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This is one of the most absurd things you’ve posted here…and you’ve posted some pretty absurd things!

Comment on Garth Paltridge held hostage (?) by the uncertainty monster by Girma

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Chris Colose

you have Brandons, hunters, Girmas, Olivers, manackers, Jim Cripwells, and others who haven’t the slightest clue what they are talking about

It is a simple question that you have failed to answer.

The question being why has the climate pattern not changed since record begun in 1850 from a cyclic variation with a slight warming of 0.06 deg C per decade as shown => http://bit.ly/Aei4Nd

That is what you AGW advocates have failed miserably to answer and AGW is dying a slow death, as it deserves.

Comment on What global warming looks like (?) by Louis Hooffstetter

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Judith, you are truly a gentlewoman and a scholar. Your are also an asset and a rare exception to your profession. Thank you for your honesty.

Comment on Garth Paltridge held hostage (?) by the uncertainty monster by gbaikie

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I am not finding anything which gives over 90 C.
They using solar ponds in Israel giving 70 to 80 C.


Comment on Garth Paltridge held hostage (?) by the uncertainty monster by manacker

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Dr. Lacis

You write:

I want to emphasize that I am not in the education business, so I don’t see it as my direct and immediate responsibility to educate people who don’t understand climate

Then why put together a rambling hatchet job on Garth Paltridge full of personal opinions and misinformation on climate, rather than just keeping your thoughts to yourself?

Max

Comment on What global warming looks like (?) by suddzz

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Does anyone do any analysis on heat wave data where urban and near by rural stations are compared? Can any case be made that the record temperatures are being significantly affected by urbanization?

Comment on Garth Paltridge held hostage (?) by the uncertainty monster by Girma

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A Lacis

It is a simple question I am asking you.

The question is why has the climate pattern not changed since record begun in 1850 from a cyclic variation with a slight warming of 0.06 deg C per decade as shown => http://bit.ly/Aei4Nd

The uniform warming of 0.06 deg C per decade EXISTED in late 19th century. Where is the change in the pattern from this uniform warming with a cyclic pattern?

Where is it please?

Is this a hard question?

Comment on Questioning the Forest et al. (2006) sensitivity study by Peter Lang

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Pekka,

I can see we do not agree on some things at a very fundamental level. It would be difficult to go back far enough to discuss those. On the matter of political Left-right spectrum, I believe I am now slightly to the right of centre, but that has been an evolution from earlier days. Much of what you say gives me the impression you are left of centre on the scales I am familiar with. I consider most of Europe to be Left of centre, so perhaps our disagreement on this is a definition issue. But it is irrelevant really; it is the policies and how to achieve them that is important.

I most definitely disagree with your comments on nuclear. Below I post and answer I provided elsewhere:

Nuclear is the key to low cost low emission energy supply

Cheap electricity provides water and produces liquid fuels for energy carriers for transport fuels. I suspect the mention of ‘cheap’ nuclear stops many people in their tracks. Why?

Regulatory ratcheting has increased the cost of nuclear by a factor of four to 1990 (according to Bernard Cohen) and probably double again since. Nuclear has been regulated to its high price. If not for the excessive regulation it has suffered for the past 50 odd years, it would be far cheaper. It would also be safer. It would have progressed through the development stages like other technologies have progressed through, but which have been prevented for nuclear.

The commercial airline industry is a good parallel. It is also a complex system which has accidents and kills people. It has accidents and kills hundreds of people at a time, thousands per year. But it is continually improving. Air travel costs have been coming down and safety increasing for the past 50 years. We accept the small risk of being involved in an accident because of the enormous benefit of low cost air travel. If we had regulated more stringently over the past 50 years, air travel would be more expensive now, there would be less air travel, the world would have lower GDP (because of less face to face communication and less commerce) and we’d be worse off. Importantly, air travel would be less safe than it is now because it would have had less development.

Development of the nuclear industry has been choked and constrained. So nuclear generation is not as safe and it is more expensive than it would have been if it had been allowed to compete and develop on an equal footing with other electricity generation technologies.

Nuclear fuel is 20,000 times more energy dense than coal and oil in the Gen III reactors and potentially up to 2 million times more energy dense in Gen IV reactors. That means many things: nuclear fuel is virtually unlimited in the Earth’s crust so can power all our energy needs indefinitely. A golf-ball size piece of uranium can provide all the energy needs of the average American for their whole life (that is all the energy needs for all the products, services and direct energy a person usesd for their whole life). Secondly, high energy density means negligible mining, negligible transport of fuels, negligible storage space. Negligible storage space and cost means the energy security problem is solved; i.e. countries can hold effectively unlimited energy in storage for as long as they want.

In WWII, the US was building aircraft carriers in 100 days (from the start to fully equipped and fully loaded with aircraft and weapons). If USA could do that 70 years ago, the industrial countries could certainly produce small modular nuclear power plants at whatever rate the world needs them. They’d be built in factories, shipped to site and returned to factory for refuelling (similar to submarines refuelling cycle).

How could we do this?

Remove all the impediments we’ve imposed, over the past 50 years, that are preventing nuclear electricity generation from being cost competitive with fossil fuels. This included the distortions we’ve imposed on our energy markets, such as tax breaks, subsidies, feed in tariffs, and masses of regulations to favour one technology or another.

No other intervention in markets is needed. All we have to do is remove the impediments we’ve imposed by 50 years of wrong-headed interventions.

Once we have cheap electricity, then we’ll be able to produce water and energy carriers for transport fuels to meet our needs.

Comment on Garth Paltridge held hostage (?) by the uncertainty monster by Girma

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A Lacis

I have a question to you.

The question is why has the climate pattern not changed since record begun in 1850 from a cyclic variation with a slight warming of 0.06 deg C per decade as shown => http://bit.ly/Aei4Nd

The uniform warming of 0.06 deg C per decade EXISTED in late 19th century. Where is the change in the pattern from this uniform warming with a cyclic pattern?

Where is it please?

Is this a hard question?

Comment on Garth Paltridge held hostage (?) by the uncertainty monster by A Lacis

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Let’s see now . . . We seem to have gone past the 350 comments mark. What (if anything) have we learned so far ?

We can clearly see that this is a free-for-all open ended blog-talk ranging from comments of the lowest common denominator to the more sublime. The quality of the discussion can only as good as what the participants can muster. The patient, polite, knowledgeable, and informative comments from Fred Moolten are clearly being missed. As a medical doctor, Fred also showed that one did not need to be a professional climatologist to understand the basic concepts of climate and climate change.

From the first 100 or so comments, it is apparent that the dominant theme of the comments is the remarkable lack of understanding displayed by most of the commentators (including their remarkable lack of understanding that there was a lack of understanding) of how the climate system works, or even the basic concepts of physics that are needed to understand climate and the world we line in.

From these comments, I am not convinced that the commentators even have a sufficiently clear understanding of the basic concept that energy must be conserved. They appear to have no clear idea of what a climate model really is, how it works, or what it does. Nor do they understand radiative transfer or the greenhouse effect. Without a clear understanding of the greenhouse effect, there is no real hope of ever understanding the nature of the global warming problem.

Also, from reading some these comments, it is obvious that there was a language communications problem. The term “unforced natural variability” is a technical term that has a specific meaning to those study climate science. In a climate model that is simulating real-world climate, there is “forcing” going on all the time, at every grid-box, vertical layer, and moment in time. Basically, nothing moves unless it is being forced. The Earth is rotating; solar illumination is changing constantly. Water evaporates, clouds form, precipitation happens. So what does “unforced” mean?

“Unforced” in the climate modeling context means that there are no “external” radiative forcing changes (e.g., changes in greenhouse gases, or changes in solar luminosity) being applied over and above all the activity that is ongoing in simulating the normal day-to-day local weather variations. A good example of natural variability is the annual temperature plot by the NY Times where the local day-to-day temperatures are plotted as a function of time of year. There is the heavy (centered) line defining the daily climate-mean temperature with the daily record high and record low temperatures defining the envelope. The day-to-day temperatures vary stochastically within this envelope (unless a new high or low record temperature is set), never repeating their previous pattern of variability.

A climate model would be expected to reproduce a similar-looking day-to-day temperature plot that varies within the climatological envelope with the warmer temperatures during the summer and colder temperatures during the winter. The day-to-day temperature variations constitute the stochastic “natural variability”, that is unpredictable, but that statistically, the temperature can be predicted to be within the climatological envelope, changing from summer to winter in response to the change in the seasonal solar forcing.

This is a fairly good example illustrating how climatic temperature change can be considered as being composed of a stochastic “natural variability” component (day-to-day temperature) with very large predictive uncertainty, and the far more deterministic component (season-mean temperature in response to the seasonal change in solar radiation).

A similar perspective applies to the global temperature, and to the inter-annual changes in global temperature that result from changes in ocean circulation (e.g., El Nino, La Nina, PDO). These temperature changes don’t have an external forcing driving them, so these temperature changes are part of the “unforced natural variability”, and hence not very predictable, except in a statistical sense. Meanwhile, global temperature change in response to the radiative forcing exerted by greenhouse gas increases is similar in nature to the seasonally driven temperature change, and thus very predictable.

Comment on What global warming looks like (?) by Ryan Maue

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To see how the “dice are loaded” for the record highs/lows study by Meehl et al. (2009): do the following:

1. Use data prior to 1950.

Thanks for playing. Pay the lady.


Comment on Garth Paltridge held hostage (?) by the uncertainty monster by A fan of *MORE* discourse

Comment on Questioning the Forest et al. (2006) sensitivity study by Peter Lang

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Pekka, yousaid: </blockquote>Development of nuclear energy was highly subsidized in its early phases</blockquote> True. But so was everything. Virtually all hydro-electricity was state owned state funded originally. As was coal generation. Renewables are far more highly subsidised than nuclear on the basis of return on investment (i.e TWh of electricity supplied per $ subsidy spent). So this argument is a red herring.

Comment on Garth Paltridge held hostage (?) by the uncertainty monster by gbaikie

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A common question has been concerning your statement:
“With the atmospheric CO2 concentration increasing to about 4% (40,000 ppmv), the global annual-mean surface temperature will rise to about 60 °C, a temperature extreme that will very likely kill off most everything that is alive. ”

Could explain how arrive at such conclusion.
What would the rise in temperature if CO2 was half of 4%?
So doubling of 20,000 ppm gives what increase?
And 10,000 ppm of CO2 would be?

You do realize that Mars with it thin CO2 which 1/100th of earth pressure, has far more CO2 than earth does.
How much warming occurs on Mars due to it’s extraordinary levels [compared earth] of CO2?

Comment on What global warming looks like (?) by capt. dallas 0.8 +/-0.2 per doubling maybe :)

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What’s up Doc! I thought every thing before 1950 didn’t count anymore :) You ever compared just the stations reporting in 1950 to the current weather map? Seems to me there would be a bunch more records since there are a bunch more stations. Then I am just a dumb Gator :)

Comment on What global warming looks like (?) by Wagathon

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Then even as you intentionally abandon the statistical method as being ill-suited in the modern age you, surely you will not simply ignore evidence of a ‘regime change’ with the data showing a ‘regime shift’ in 1997. And, if you do not simply abandon reason entirely when the facts do not support your preconceptions, surly you must concede that there has been another major ‘regime shift’ a few years into the 21st Century coinciding with solar data indicating that the Sun is taking a time out.

AGW fearmongers simply do not want to consider the possibility that humanity may experience decades of global cooling. The Climatists simply do not want to have to deal with anything that exposes their ulterior motives which are all political and have nothing to do with climate change.

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