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Comment on Just the facts, please by Joshua

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Hi bob –

Three things:

(1) You might want to be careful: Many “denizens,” and Judith herself, tend to get upset about “appeals to authority.”

(2) I don’t question Judith’s grounding in climate science. I cannot judge the science. I have, however at times, seen her use facile logic and formulate conclusions without sufficient data during discussions of non-scientific issues. When I see smart and knowledgeable people making such errors, I have to wonder whether or not that habit creeps into their analysis of science. It suggests that such a person is not fully open to exploring the potential biases in their own analytical process. As such, when that person states that they are only advocating for nothing other than “integrity in science,” I remain dubious.

(3) I never claimed not to be silly.


Comment on Just the facts, please by Pekka Pirilä

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Additional CO2 moves the average altitude of emission up. That does, indeed, reduce initially the temperature of the source of emission by making the temperature difference between the emitting layers and the surface larger.

The immediate effect is the reduction of the temperature of emission source but that creates an energy imbalance (radiative forcing) that starts to warm the atmosphere and the surface. The warming continues as long as the energy imbalance has not been removed by the warming. Assuming that the increase in the CO2-concentration stops the ultimate result is a warmer surface and the same effective radiative temperature as before the whole process started.

Comment on Just the facts, please by Jim Cripwell

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Jim D, you wrtie “but the facts are clear.”

Not to any proper scientist. The facts are only clear when they are based on hard, measured, independently replicated data. Show me the hard measured data, and I will agree that the facts are clear. But until I see the measured data, there are no facts.

Comment on Just the facts, please by Edim

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Don’t give them ideas kim. I didn’t say it’s significant.

Comment on Just the facts, please by Latimer Alder

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I invite you to join me in the saloon bar of the Dog and Duck and try to convince the widely-experienced and extremely savvy regular early evening drinkers therein that carbon dioxide has produced global warming which has in turn led to a ‘bitterly cold wave’.

Your first task will be to explain how warming leads to cooling. Then you will need to persuade them that unvalidated models produce anything useful at all. After that it’ll be open season.

Comment on Just the facts, please by manacker

Comment on Just the facts, please by Jim D

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Reducing output for the same solar input means energy converges, meaning warming, either at the surface or in the ocean, but it has to warm somewhere. I thought paleo studies showed a warmer tropical ocean in the past, so I don’t see why it can’t happen again.

Comment on Just the facts, please by Jim D

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It is physics. We don’t have direct measurements of the interior of the sun, but physics tells us what is going on. There is enough indirect evidence to verify that there is nothing unexpected going on with this warming.


Comment on Just the facts, please by Edim

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Pekka, so you mean in a steady state, and at constant incoming solar energy, the Earth can only radiate 100% of the incoming solar energy (of course in a different spectrum)?

Comment on No consensus on consensus: Part II by MattStat/MatthewRMarler

Comment on No consensus on consensus: Part II by stan

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Don’t care much for “relatives” as a verb.

Comment on No consensus on consensus: Part II by hro001

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Judith, One aspect of the "consensus" as promulgated by the IPCC that you might want to consider is that there is some indication that even the "insiders" differ on their <em>interpretation</em> of the word. Yet, for the most part, they remain <em>deafeningly silent</em> when it is taken up and - in effect - used as a cudgel by the media and by activist organizations whose pronouncements are far more likely to reach the public than any of the science upon which this "consensus" is supposedly based. For example, as I had <a href="http://hro001.wordpress.com/2010/06/18/honey-i-shrunk-the-consensus/" rel="nofollow">observed</a> in June 2010, Mike Hulme wrote (my bold -hro): <blockquote>“Claims such as ’2,500 of the world’s leading scientists have reached a <strong>consensus</strong> that human activities are having a significant influence on the climate’ are disingenuous. “That particular <strong>consensus judgement</strong>, as are many others in the IPCC reports, <strong>is reached by only a few dozen experts</strong> in the specific field of detection and attribution studies; other IPCC authors are experts in other fields.”</blockquote> Approximately a year later, as I had documented in (what has become a "dangling") <a href="http://hro001.wordpress.com/2011/07/31/a-conversation-with-an-ipcc-coordinating-lead-author/" rel="nofollow">Conversation with an IPCC coordinating lead author</a>, I was advised that (again, my bold -hro]: it is this line-by-line approval process [of the SPM] that results in the <strong>actual consensus</strong> that the IPCC is famous for, and which is sometimes misunderstood. The consensus is not a consensus among all authors about every issue assessed in the report; <strong>it is a consensus among governments about the summary for policymakers.</strong> Yet, as I had noted in that same post, to the best of my knowledge neither of these IPCC "insiders" (or any others, for that matter!) has taken the step of <em>correcting</em> the very public pronouncements of (for example and again, my bold): Oreskes (in <em>Science</em>, Dec. 2004): <blockquote>"The <strong>scientific consensus</strong> is clearly expressed in the reports of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC). [...] IPCC states unequivocally that the <strong>consensus of scientific opinion</strong> [...]"</blockquote> Greenpeace (July 20, 2010): <blockquote>Scientific consensus There is, in fact, a <strong>broad and overwhelming scientific consensus</strong> that climate change is occurring, is caused in large part by human activities (such as burning fossil fuels), and if left unchecked will likely have <strong>disastrous consequences.</strong></blockquote> Union of Concerned Scientists (March 7, 2011): <blockquote>Scientific Consensus on Global Warming Scientific societies and scientists have released statements and studies showing the growing <strong>consensus on climate change science</strong>. A common objection to taking action to reduce our heat-trapping emissions has been uncertainty within the scientific community on whether or not global warming is happening and if it is caused by humans. However, <strong>here is now an overwhelming scientific consensus</strong> that global warming is indeed happening and humans are contributing to it.</blockquote> And, as recently as a few days ago, Adam Corner had concluded an essay by noting: <blockquote><a href="http://talkingclimate.org/communicating-climate-change-where-next/" rel="nofollow">Communicating climate change: where next?</a> Without a focus on better com­mu­nic­a­tion, the danger is that the gap between the <strong>sci­entific and the social con­sensus</strong> on cli­mate change will con­tinue to grow.</blockquote> In your post, (which I very much liked, btw!) you have asked for suggestions regarding the "way forward". This may seem somewhat "radical" from a conservative "diagnostician" such as I; but, IMHO, perhaps a good first step would be to <em>excise</em> this foggy, mythical, shape-shifting "consensus" from the ongoing debate. IOW, I wholeheartedly endorse your conclusion that: <blockquote>It is time to abandon the concept of consensus in favor of open debate [...]</blockquote> Hilary [stepping down from "anti-consensus" soapbox ;-)]

Comment on No consensus on consensus: Part II by gbaikie

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“You got all that wrong. The truth is exactly the opposite of what you write.”

Fascinating.
So the opposite would be what?
I didn’t want to get into anything I thought someone would disagree with.

Btw, the gas molecule of water is a source of heat when it becomes a liquid.
So phase changes of a gas can be a source of heat.
And obviously gases can warm via convection and conduction- but was keeping on topic of radiant properties of gas, liquids, and solids.

Comment on No consensus on consensus: Part II by hro001

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Ooops ... sorry seem to have omitted some blockquotes. Above should read: <blockquote>it is this line-by-line approval process [of the SPM] that results in the <strong>actual consensus</strong> that the IPCC is famous for, and which is sometimes misunderstood. The consensus is not a consensus among all authors about every issue assessed in the report; <strong>it is a consensus among governments about the summary for policymakers.</strong></blockquote>

Comment on No consensus on consensus: Part II by wsutton17

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The ‘red team’ concept would be an excellent addition to the IPCC. It would also never ever ever be implemented by the IPCC.


Comment on No consensus on consensus: Part II by The Skeptical Warmist (aka R. Gates)

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Right now many dozens of people in the U.S. government are focused on planning for an ice free Arctic. From military strategy to resource development, this planning is one big huge “IF”. If the Arctic sea ice continues to melt, if warming continues, etc. Some may say this is a huge waste of tax dollars, to plan for such a future potential event…where’s the “consensus” Another very foolish thing the U.S. government is doing. Others would say it would be foolish not to be doing this planning.

Comment on No consensus on consensus: Part II by captdallas2 0.8 +0.2 or -0.4

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gbaikie, Pekka is right, there is some serious confusion in that post.

Start with basics, the energy emitted from a greenhouse house gas is not related to the temperature of the gas. Cold gas can radiate as much energy as warm gas.

The radiant energy of any object is dependent on the temperature and the emissivity of the object. Warmer can emit more than colder.

The amount energy radiated from a greenhouse gas is dependent upon some heat source which radiate at wavelength which excites a greenhouse gas. If one could somehow switch off the source of this energy, then the greenhouse gas stops radiating. As long as the gas had a temperature above 0K it would radiate. Shutting off the source of radiant energy that it can absorb would shut off the energy it can absorb from that source. It can still absorb energy through collision or from another source.

The temperature of any gas is related to the velocity of the gas molecule. Related but not dependent. You seem to be confusing velocity with kinetic energy. Molecules can vibrate, spin, twist etc. depending on the degrees of freedom they have.

The temperature of solid or liquid is the velocity of molecules confined by molecular structure and solids and liquids radiate energy “near their surface”.
A solid or liquid on earth can be a source of radiant energy- as they cool they emit radiation. Gases are not a source of radiant energy, but emitter of radiant energy some other source of energy.

So solids or liquids can be heated up, and once heated [from the sun] they can be a source of radiant energy. Gases can store energy in terms having their average velocity increased. Same deal, it is the degrees of freedom and velocity is just one degree of freedom. Every element, compound or alloy has different properties depending on their degrees of freedom which vary with temperature and pressure.

So when you measuring radiant energy from greenhouse gases, this radiation is dependent of the source of this energy- which can be liquids or solids. Without the cooling of liquids or solids, the radiation from greenhouse gases would cease.
And therefore when one is measuring the radiation of greenhouse gases
you are indirectly measuring the cooling of liquids and solids.

When you measure the radiant energy of anything, you are measuring its radiant energy. The measurement does tell you how it got that energy. You can infer where it got the energy, but you can’t track down the genealogy of each photon or vibration.

I think what you were trying to say is that greenhouse gases do not manufacture energy which is true, the energy they contain depends on the various sources of energy they can absorb and how much energy they can contain, their specific heat. If you shut off all energy to Earth, it would still emit radiant energy until all the molecules reached their lowest energy state. All the potential energy holding the atmosphere up against gravity would be convert into kinetic energy as the atmosphere collapsed. All the latent energy would be released as the fluid molecules combined into a final frozen solid. Then all the frozen solids would continue to radiate energy until all molecular motion stopped. That BTW is a crap load of energy which is the real reason the Earth is still here, it can weather a pretty good storm with its back-up potential energy. That is also why radiant focused modeling misses the over all energy picture. The Earth can loss some types of energy faster than it can regain that energy. The Earth has thermal masses with thermal capacities with varying absorption and release rates and locations the thermal masses can lose of gain energy. It is not a billiard ball floating in space :)

Comment on Just the facts, please by MattStat/MatthewRMarler

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Pekka Pirila:<i>That kind of ratios are indicative of the use of models or parametrizations. In that way it’s possible to evaluate a probability that’s much smaller than 1% and that allows for a 62 times higher probability. </i> Just so: say an increase from 0.005 to 0.3. But estimates usually come with confidence intervals, and the confidence intervals with 95% confidence could be something like (0, 0.3) and (0.1, 0.5) for the previous probabilities, compatible with a slight increase.

Comment on Just the facts, please by MattStat/MatthewRMarler

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Kip Hansen: So, from what yo say, this is simply some kind of statistical buffoonery

In writing, that’s going too far. It’s very common for people to overlook the imprecision of parameter estimates. We would only say in watercooler conversation that it is foolishness or buffoonery. Formally we would say something like: But what are the confidence intervals?

Comment on No consensus on consensus: Part II by curryja

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