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Comment on No consensus on consensus: Part II by Peter Lang

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Faustino,

I did not argue we can model or project accurately 50, 100 or 200 years ahead. No model of weather, climate, or economics provides accurate forecasts. But we need the information to understand the implications. If you don’t do the work, or you deny people the opportunity to see the results they want to see, they will dismiss this work and accept Stern, Garnaut and others who project for hundreds of years. Nordhaus’s model accumulates costs out to 2495. The reason they do this is because they argue it is a long term problem and we have to consider the long term consequences. So if you don’ use all the best data and best models currently available, the work will be dismissed.

BTW, I am not asking for a new model to be made from scratch. I am suggesting the results can be got from RICE( 2012), with a bit of tweaking to present them in the way I am suggesting.


Comment on No consensus on consensus: Part II by Latimer Alder

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@steve milewsorthy

Let me ask you the direct question

‘In your opinion Is the level of IT ability revealed in Harry Read Me typical of that within climatology?’

You might also wish to reflect that pure programming ability, though important, is only a part of professional IT. There are other disciplines around systems and data management, audit, robustness and a host of others that are needed as well.

Comment on No consensus on consensus: Part II by David Wojick

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An imposed fee and dividend system is not capitalism, rather the opposite. But you have missed the point of the entire discussion, which is there is no consensus that there is a problem, rather the opposite, a great debate. Solutions are premature at best.

Comment on No consensus on consensus: Part II by RobertInAz

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Jim Weedman
“I am no expert in US power contracts, so I’ll have to believe that you have got a very good deal here.”

An OK deal. Had I been willing to do it myself, I think I could have got the $16,500 4 KW system installed for $14,000. That $2500 is (roughly) the profit to the solar installer (which other than standard warrantee, has no residual financial risk). For that, and for 20 years of somebody else managing my solar system – I’ll pay $2500. There is a lot of competition in this market.

Why does NRG put a solar panel on my house rather than build a large centralized plant? I think Latimer nails it:
“b. There is some regulatory constraint that means it is obliged to offer favourable terms (bad regulatory constraints can be changed)
c. There is some form of subsidy that makes this worth their while (bad…subsidies can go as fast as they come)”

Here are the subsidies that I would get that I sign over to NRG:
- $4950 federal tax credit (this is within the year) This subsidy goes for another couple of years.
- $1000 state tax credit (this is within the year). Not sure how much longer this one lasts
- $2205 power company credit (this is over a period of years). This one is going away soon.
I am not sure what subsidies are available to standalone solar installations. Recall that the environmentalists were opposed to one near the Imperial valley in California because of the required transmission infrastructure.
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So NRG gets almost half the cost of the system back from guaranteed payers over the first few years of the life of the system.
NRG gets to depreciate the system over some small number of years. I bet they get to depreciate the entire $16,500 capital cost. As a homeowner, I do not get this “subsidy”.
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Finally, to get the 6.6 TO 7.7 cents/kWh I prepay all or part of the lease. Most people prepay little or non of the lease. In those cases, the cost of the power jumps up close to 11 cents per kWh, which is a nice little profit to NRG over the course of the lease.

The advantage to me to prepay the lease is that I can depend on all of those other payng installations to keep NRG engaged in this endeavor for the life of the lease.

So back to the numbers:
DIY minus subsidies means the sustem would cost me about $8500.
Prepaid lease means the system would cost me $8300 with a system on my roof to be addressed in 20 years.

Other ways to look at the econmomics:
In AZ with decent citing, 1 kW of PV capacity produces an average of 1500 kWh per year over 20 years. The cost of the panels (which is still half of the cost of a system even at todays depressed panel prices) is about $2,000/kW. The value of the power that the 1500 kWh offsets is roughly $300/year at todays price schedule. Hard to nail this number down because power price rages from a high of $0.245 peak summer to $0.195 peak winter to $0.065 off peak. About half of the panel production is peak hours.

Other thoughts
Subsidies almost exactly offset the cost of the panel or half the cost of the system.
My power company, APS, has promised price stability for the next 4 years.
All of APS marginal capacity is now Natural Gas. One wonders how long NG prices will remain insanely depressed in relation to its BTU value.
“Since carbon offset credits are an entirely hypothetical entity with only a nominal and hence highly volatile (including zero) value, the whole scheme involves the power company moving the risk of their future value from the power company to you.”
Two considerations:
1. If the power company goes away then I still have a functioning solar system on my roof with a 25 year warrantee on the panels – which may also be worthless given the carnage in the panel producer ranks. So in addition to the power panel breaking, the lessor has to disappear. The current scheme is based on history of many years of solar installations in AZ.
2. There is no residual financial risk to me. I pay what the contract says. For thousands who are not prepaying the lease, they do not pay if the lessor does not perform.

Comment on Climate models at their limit? by tempterrain

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Latimer,

You say that climatologists have forecast such things as “By 2010 snow will be a thing of the past”

Where did they say that? I’m no climatologist but, just by simple arithmetic, anyone can work out that should temperatures rise by 3 deg C by the end of the century, never mind the year 2010, to match IPCC predictions, snow will only be a “thing of the past” in those countries which never experienced temperatures below -3degC in the 20th century.

If you are just going to make things up, you’ll have to do better than that!

Comment on Climate models at their limit? by Peter Lang

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Pekka Pirila,

I’d suspect you mean “should” rather than “would” in this sentence.

The decision maker would not attempt directly a cost-benefit analysis extending very far to the future and impossible to do in a way that would give meaningful results. He would rather try to estimate the outcome of the policy decision for the state of the world at a more tractable distance in the future like 10 years.

Clearly, “would” is not the correct word because, if it was, we would not have had the EU ETS, the Australian CO2 tax and ETS, the Stern Review, the Garnaut Review, and the Nordhaus DICE and RICE models (which project costs and benefits out to the year 2495). Nor would we have had aims of carbon pricing, World Government and UN taxation at the Copenhagen, Cancun, Durban and Rio+20 conferences.

Comment on No consensus on consensus: Part II by Pekka Pirilä

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Peter,

Some of the major problems are caused by bad policies in the sense that minimal policies would have been essentially better. It’s much more common that external factors have changes the stage and the optimal policies to react to the changes have not been found or chosen.

Very many developments have changed the relative positions of countries. The technical basis of globalization is irreversible. Extremely fast communication is one major factor, developments in transportation and logistics is another. They have really changed the competitive status of rich countries. They cannot employ low-cost workforce in their own countries to compete in production where that remains important.

To maintain the high level of well-being of wealthy countries requires a lot of change, not stopping the change by freezing some essential development. Isolationism is not an alternative, but maintaining the large differences in economic prosperity becomes all the time more difficult when contacts between peoples get closer. The best hope is that the gap gets narrower from one side only, but is that a realistic hope?

Comment on Climate models at their limit? by Pekka Pirilä

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Peter,

I don’t think I made an error in that as I refer to what the decision maker would be lead to do by own choice having new tools available.


Comment on Climate models at their limit? by Peter Lang

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Pekka,

I don’t understand what you mean. Are you suggesting that all of a sudden we have new tools that allow us to make the correct decision?

That really strains credulity. After, 40,000 years or so of man making decisions, all of a sudden, now, in 2012, we have the tools to allow us to make the correct decision. Is that what you are saying?

Comment on Climate models at their limit? by Pekka Pirilä

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Reading my lengthy comment it should be clear that I don't expect anything sudden to happen. Rather I am discussing a goal for development towards better understanding and better tools for making judgments on issues of long term significance. I cannot say that those tools or even that approach <i>should</i> have been used in past decision making or even for next decisions because that cannot be done. My hope is that development of these ideas will continue and ultimately lead also to tools that then <i>would</i> be used.

Comment on Climate models at their limit? by Latimer Alder

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Ummm

That a small amount of cyanide can have a large effect is not dispute. But the correspondent attempts to equate cyanide – a known poison – with CO2, which is not a poison. The intent is to suggest to the unwary that CO2 is also poisonous.

Now where have we heard usage like this before?

Let’s try ‘ocean acidification’. Much more scary than ‘ocean neutralisation’. Conjures up all sorts of unpleasant images.

But both are typical of climatological alarmists. Why let the facts get in the way of a good scare story?

Houghton said

‘If we want good environmental policy in future, we’ll have to have a disaster’

And stuff like this is just a blatant attempt to help things along. Pathetic.

Comment on No consensus on consensus: Part II by Peter Lang

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Pekka,

Lots of good points. However, I think there is a tendency to ignore or avid admitting to the many things we do to shoot ourselves in the foot. I can give many examples of how the EU, UK, USA and Australia have passed laws that make us less competitive. I’ll start with Australia:

1. Carbon tax and ETS
2. Mining Tax
3. Industrial Relations laws returned to the 1980s, so unions are now back in control of running the country, holding businesses to ransom, industrial disputation taking off like a hockey stick
4. Mandatory renewable energy targets, renewable energy certificates, feed in tariffs (more than ten times the wholesale cost of electricity), direct subsidies for renewable energy plants and transmission to remote renewable plants
5. 16,000 new regulation imposed on business and society by this government in the past 4 ½ years and only 78 removed.

You get the picture.

This is not helping us maintain our high level of well being. It is doing the opposite.

We have to compete in our areas of natural advantage. We need to be flexible

Comment on Climate models at their limit? by Latimer Alder

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@tempterrain

You ask ‘Where did they say that?’

Here – in year 2000.

http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/snowfalls-are-now-just-a-thing-of-the-past-724017.html

It was taken very seriously at the time. Back in the day when we very foolish enough to believe that we should treat climatologists with some respect and that their pronouncements were based on something other than wishful thinking. Remember too that The Hockey Stick still had credibility in those days.

He also said

‘Children just aren’t going to know what snow is’.

Please check Google before accusing me of making things up. I leave that sort of nonsense to the alarmists.

Comment on No consensus on consensus: Part II by gbaikie

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“The whole sky would be covered by about 185000 suns. At that point the Earth would be as hot as the suns.”

If so than earth would shine like the sun, and heat up the other suns.

Let’s see, Earth is average distance of 149.6 million km
And sphere area with radius of 149.6 million km is 281,237 trillion sq km.
Sun is 1.5 trillion sq km. So yeah around 185,000 suns. So completely enclosed in suns, so nowhere to radiate heat. So yes suppose it would, be same temperature as sun. Though suns being so close to each other is impossible.

“Two suns would raise the effective radiative temperature to 302K or 25C with the present albedo. Four suns would give 86C with the same assumption.”

The four sun would only have 2 share the same sky when they in morning and late afternoon- after 9am the other sun would be setting.
You would roughly get same surface temperature as though the earth didn’t rotate, but always facing the sun. So about same temperature on earth always facing and in a spot in which the sun was at zenith, whatever the temperature was there, would similar to temperature of the four sun earth but averaged over most of surface. So seems to me the average global temperature would about 50 C or less. If assume there is more cloud coverage [and don't how there couldn't be] it should much less, and as said maybe 30 C or perhaps warm as 40 C.

Or lets see suppose 4 sun stayed one location. So traveling around the world at equator, the sun is at zenith at each 90 degree longitude.
From zenith point you travel 45 degree west. At this point one sees two suns at 45 degree angle. With clear sky is may or may not warmest spot. Then go north to 45 degree latitude, here one also see two suns but will less heating from suns. Higher up in latitude one get less sunlight and to be warm the heat has be transported from warmer regions.

It seems to me that there will much difference skin temperature of ocean nor much difference in sand temperature in tropics- though of course no night time cooling, it would like the warmest part of day, constantly.
Temperate regions ground temperature will be more like tropical ground temperatures during warmest parts of day. And UK would be tropical but it’s possible it gets less direct sunlight than does now.

Comment on Climate models at their limit? by andrew adams

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The above says more about your determination to misinterpret anything said by the “alarmists” than anything else.
John’s analogy was perfectly valid and unless you have amazing telepathic powers you have no right to claim what his true “intention” was. The point Houghton was making is perfectly clear if you read it in full and the fact that the fake skeptics have been wilfully misinterpreting it only proves their dishonesty.
Ocean acidification is the standard term which has been used in the scientific literature for years.


Comment on Climate models at their limit? by Peter Lang

Comment on No consensus on consensus: Part II by Pekka Pirilä

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Peter,

I’m not going to argue on any particular point. I only note that the development of a society is genuinely an issue of multiple targets and multiple constraints. Taking some of the others into account will be detrimental in short run for a chosen one, but taking the others into account may be crucially important in the long run even for that single target.

Going back in history it’s easy to find violent demonstrations of that fact in revolutions wars mass movements of population as well as many less violent and dramatic examples.

Finding good compromises and getting them accepted is the real virtue in politics (perhaps adding that maintaining the influence to make the changes long lasting).

Comment on Climate models at their limit? by andrew adams

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Houghton’s quote in full.

“If we want good environmental policy in future, we’ll have to have a disaster. It’s like safety on public transport. The only way humans will act is if there’s been an accident.”

Comment on No consensus on consensus: Part II by Faustino

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Yes, Pekka, I’ve made the point that whatever the circumstances, we’ll get better outcomes with policies which foster our capacity to innovate and adapt. Most of the EU adopted the euro for political reasons, against economists’ advice, and the loss of flexibility has cost them dearly (along with many other rigid policies, e.g. in industrial relations where the focus is often on protecting existing jobs at the expense of young people who can’t find work and of growth).

Comment on Climate models at their limit? by Rob Starkey

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Gary M

Imo, you are correct in your observation about Robert and I won’t reply to him again.

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