Quantcast
Channel: Comments for Climate Etc.
Viewing all 148626 articles
Browse latest View live

Comment on Apportioning natural and forced components in the Arctic amplification by Joshua

$
0
0

Steve -

If one can show that even using the favored model of a particular theory-advocate that her interpretation of the data is overly confident, that in no way constitutes a validation of the model in question

If a model by a wide margin results in A, and in one test you use that model with a result of B, you can’t invalidate those proofs of A simply by pointing to outcome B. You would need to explicate a mechanistic difference that shows why result B was valid in comparison to many results of A.

If “skeptic” after “skeptic” says that the models are rigged, either through intentional bias or through invalid “adjustment,” then the by their arguments the models are invalid.

If you argue an model, because of inherent or impost structural flaws, produces invalid results, then you can’t point to the result of such a model and say that the results are valid, let alone that they prove that the model is invalid.

The only people who could be logically consistent in saying that these results are valid are those who say that the models are valid, and who then go on to explain why, in an explicit way, these results were valid even though in contrast to previous results with the use of these models.


Comment on A modest proposal for sequestration of CO2 in the Antarctic by Sean

$
0
0

You know, the oceans do a heck of a job at sequestering CO2 (just look at the Grand Canyon) and turning it into dolomite and limestone. Why in heaven’s name is anyone trying to re-invent the wheel here when a little augmentation of mother nature’s handywork would likely be much much easier, more reliable and cheaper? In fact it works best with warm shallow seas!

Comment on Apportioning natural and forced components in the Arctic amplification by Joshua

$
0
0

All I’m asking for is a little consistency, John.

Is that really too much to ask for?

Comment on A modest proposal for sequestration of CO2 in the Antarctic by BillC

$
0
0

er, um, they do it especially well when the co2 sequestration is biological. thus the ocean fertilization stuff. i think the allure of ambient co2 capture is the ‘no-harm’ idea. sulfate aerosols are still the way cheapest geoengineering proposal – if they work and don’t have nasty side effects and who compensates the farmers and all that….!!!!

Comment on Philosophical reflections on climate model projections by Vaughan Pratt

$
0
0

@blouis79: On the “snowball earth” hypothesis: if we consider the case of an earth with no sun and no ability to radiate. In such conditions, the earth would be isothermal. Isothermal earth would not be a snowball, it would be rather hotter because of the molten core. It is the ability to radiate and lose heat to space (there is no other mode of heat loss to space of note) that results in the real earth surface including a sun warming it being cooler than an isothermal radiatively insulated earth with no sun. Show me a model that can correctly predict these boundary conditions.

You already have one: the one you used to determine what you think will happen.

Furthermore every model that predicts the same outcome as yours would need the same feature as yours: a surface with zero emissivity. Other details would then be largely irrelevant.

As a picky point, from a real-world physics standpoint your question is purely hypothetical. If we take “surface” to mean the top layer of molecules, zero emissivity is not remotely approachable physically. The thickness of such a surface would be 0.0001 of the wavelength of emitted radiation. That layer, and for that matter several thousand such layers deeper, would have essentially unit emissivity. This is because such layers are largely transparent to the thermal radiation they emit. You need a thickness on the order of a wavelength to even begin blocking thermal radiation.

But in that case conductivity kicks in to warm the top molecular layers from below. That is, the outgoing thermal flow is weakly conductive up to the top few microns, and strongly radiative thereafter.

This conductive flow from the core up to the top few microns can be estimated at around 60-80 mW/m2. Without the Sun to keep it warm, the surface of the Earth would lose heat at essentially that rate. As it cooled, practically all of the atmosphere would freeze and settle on (and hence become) the surface.

When equilibrium with the 2.7 K temperature of space was reached, the temperature of the surface would be roughly 35 K, while the core would remain molten, kept warm by the decay of radioactive elements, for the order of their half-life anyway.

I computed the 35 K surface temperature as sqrt(sqrt(.09/sb)) where .09 W/m2 is is a tad more than the current rate of heat flow from the core to the surface, and sb is the Stefan-Boltzmann constant 5.67 x 10^-8. The outgoing heat from the core dwarfs all incoming heat from space whence the latter can be neglected.

35 K under the real-world assumption that a wavelength of thermal radiation is thousands of molecules wide is a very different outcome from a model that assumes exactly zero emissivity.

Comment on Apportioning natural and forced components in the Arctic amplification by Joshua

$
0
0

gbaikie -

Actually this use of model, is what models are for- help find unknowns.
Rather than solidify conclusions.

Agreed.

Comment on A modest proposal for sequestration of CO2 in the Antarctic by jim2

$
0
0

Amines are a strong base and the reaction product is a salt. Even at low temperatures, I think the reaction would work, but a design study would have to be done for the cold environment. Even if some heat is needed, a small nuclear reactor could handle it.

Comment on A modest proposal for sequestration of CO2 in the Antarctic by plazaeme

$
0
0

Are the wind industry people desperate, or what?


Comment on Apportioning natural and forced components in the Arctic amplification by A fan of *MORE* discourse

$
0
0

Scott, with respect, observation and theory both plainly say otherwise, eh?   :)   :)   :)

Climatereason’s novel assertions lack solid observational *OR* theoretical foundations, and in their present largely-unpublished form, are understood solely by him, eh?

Whereas Neven’s near-term observations accord perfectly with Hansen’s long-ago long-term predictions, eh?

So consensus climate-change science is looking pretty solid, eh?   :)   :)   :)

Comment on Apportioning natural and forced components in the Arctic amplification by Scott

$
0
0

to Peter, . You should go to the nearest University library or large city library and they can usually get electronic copies for institutional use.

Comment on A modest proposal for sequestration of CO2 in the Antarctic by Steven Mosher

$
0
0

Your personal carbon allowance. 30 tons per person.
you have 5 to 6 years left in your allowance.

Air capture. we better learn how to do it

Comment on Apportioning natural and forced components in the Arctic amplification by Scott

$
0
0

fan, you are so wrong but I will go back to skipping over your posts. Try to listen to tonyb and Pielke sr and move to something more professional.

Comment on Apportioning natural and forced components in the Arctic amplification by lolwot

$
0
0

Could I see all the classified military reports then that my tax money has paid for?

Comment on Apportioning natural and forced components in the Arctic amplification by vukcevic

Comment on Activate (?) your science by Peter Lang

$
0
0

Pekka Pirilä
@ September 2, 2012 at 3:31 pm

I have the contrasting view that every decision implies a view on the relative merits of alternatives. Telling which alternatives are better means that an ordering is created for the alternatives. By that they are put on one line which is very close to telling their relative present values. Telling the present values as well as possible is an economic comparison of costs and benefits and the more explicitly and quantitatively that can be done the better the choices can be discussed.</blockquote

This is an interesting comment. I’d like you to explain it further, please. I have read your posts on your web site, but confess to not fully understanding what you are proposing. Can you provide a link to where there is an example. For me explanations in words don’t make it clear to me what you are suggesting.

I agree that long term projections are totally unreliable and “almost hopeless” as you correctly say. However, they are better than just a fight between people with different beliefs.

I agree with your final paragraph.


Comment on Climate Etc. at 2 by David L. Hagen

$
0
0

curryja
Excellent. If you can automate it, I would recommend limit of 20 of the last 1000 comments.
Alternatively allow that portion of comments per week to encourage thoughtful comments. e.g. if 500 comments/post and 5 posts / week = 2500 comments/week; at 20/1000 = allow 50 comments / week maximum. That may feel like cutting the Federal budget back to the historic 20% (or preferably to the 10% it was a century ago.) However I think that would be very useful.

Comment on Rhetoric and rafts by captdallas2 0.8 +0.2 or -0.4

$
0
0

Myrrh, few things in climate are simple. While you are still a bit misguided, CO2 does need help transferring heat in the atmosphere, whether that heat is from conduction, convection or radiation. In the Antarctic you could increase the CO2 concentration 300 times and only see a small change in retained heat. In the tropics, CO2 transfers more heat to water vapor stimulating upper level convection, a cooling feed back. CO2 has its maximum impact under just the right conditions, which is why it has confounded so many bright people. It is non-linear, without knowing what normal is, you cannot separate CO2 warming from natural variability. It does though have a radiant impact.

Like I said though, the CO2 radiant interaction is a small part of AGW. Land use may not have an immediate warming impact, but after enough time it will impact weather patterns changing the distribution of energy. In some places that is a good thing, in others like the Sahel and southern Siberia, not so good a thing. Face it, you can’t change up to 15% of the surface of the Earth without having some impact on climate. er… Ergo :)

Comment on Climate Etc. at 2 by P.E.

$
0
0

Two is not a good age. If this blog is entering the Terrible Twos, expect more food fights.

Comment on Climate Etc. at 2 by Beth Cooper

$
0
0

Looks like the birthday party’s over and it’s back ter.. )
Latimer, 02/08 9.31am comments that many denizens here come with a ‘ history of solving real world problems and of working with a breadth of different skills (compared to) …ivory tower academics,’

As Latimer notes, in the real world there are consequences fer decisions and action – feedback loops, possible litigation … that encourage development of broad skills and pragmatic thinking. History records, including those ofTony B, ‘climate reason,’ reveal that weather had social and political feedback consequences, often dire consequences fer farmers, whalers, war lords, hungry populations and fer political stability.

In climate science, the Climate Gate emails clearly showed in house thinking by climate scientists, pal review, a non-feedback environment and insular thinking. The science of modelling climate, tweak, adjust, try to calculate and include complex interactions, cloud behavior, isn’t real world feedback loop science either, seems ter me …

Comment on Activate (?) your science by tempterrain

$
0
0

Peter Lang,

“I haven’t a clue what TT said. I don’t bother reading his comments any more.”

I can imagine you with your fingers in your ears when you’re having a quarrel with you wife saying “I’m not listening, I’m not listening”!

Come on Pete, get stuck into me if you disagree. I can take it. :-)

Viewing all 148626 articles
Browse latest View live




Latest Images