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Comment on Hansen on the ‘standstill’ by manacker

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Skeptical

You bring up some valid points on Ocean Heat Content. Bravo!

To go into a bit more detail:

- Data prior to ARGO (2003) are dicey and spotty – just prior to ARGO the few expendable XBT devices were known to introduce a false warming signal – before that data are even more unreliable

- First ARGO results showed slight cooling from 2003 to 2008 (Willis’ “speed bump”); the ARGO data was then “corrected” to show slight warming instead (I have not seen a publication where the reason and extent of the “corrections” made is made transparent for all to see)

- Ocean warming is being reported in the tiniest units possible (joules) – a unit that means nothing to the general public, but sounds “big” (because there’s a bunch of them); if it were reported in degrees C (which people can relate to), the warming would be a few thousandths of a degree per year

So, yes, a bit more transparency, a better unit of measure and a few decades of data are required before these data mean very much (as you’ve stated).

Max


Comment on Hansen on the ‘standstill’ by Alexander Biggs

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“The five-year mean global temperature has been flat for the last decade”

At last we have an admissin of a standstill in global temperature for the last decade.The question now is – is it just a pause or is it permanebt? Probably neither.Certainly if CO2 is the main culprit we have to think again. Perhaps my theoretical model (above) is correct.

The Hansen data leaves us in no doubt that global warming is basically a northern hemisphere problem which makes it curious why our Australian PM is so keen to lead the world in action against it. Certainly we feel the effects of Nino/Nina but that is nothing to do with CO2. Is the N/S difference due to there being more geeenhouse gases in the North or more urban heat islands?

The fall in temperature between 1940 and 1970 remains a problem with the Hansen explanations. He blames it on unknown aerosols, yet it is perfectly natural for molecules of CO2, according to quantum theory, to change their state by losing a photon of energy under certain conditions that have never been properly explored by climate science.

Finally, as a pioneer mathematical modeller I congratulate Hansen et al on their attempts to model global climate. Maybe in the future there will be computers powerful enough to do it.

Comment on Hansen on the ‘standstill’ by manacker

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Skeptical and Okie

Agree with you both that “short term blips” are meaningless.

Come back and talk about ocean heat content when you have, say, three decades of reliable ARGO data, OK?

Any “data” prior to 2003 is next to worthless, so all you’ve got now is a “short term blip” from 2003 to today – and the folks have had to “correct” the ARGO data to change a slight cooling trend (2003-2008) to a slight warming trend (2003-2012).

Max

Comment on Hansen on the ‘standstill’ by timg56

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+ 1

Unfortunately Josh is only interested in philosophical debates about tribes, BBD in trying to supplant WEB as the leading ill tempered curmudgeon and Michael – well, if anyone can enlighten us as to what Michael is looking for here, other than perfecting the role of the braying jackass, I’d be interesting in knowing.

Comment on Hansen on the ‘standstill’ by manacker

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Kip Hansen

Your namesake has just discovered that summers are warmer than winters (comes from having an indoors office job).

Max

Comment on Hansen on the ‘standstill’ by manacker

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Max_OK

Can I quote you on your “prediction”?

Or was it just a “projection”?

Or maybe an “extrapolation”?

I’ll reword it slightly this way (to meet the specs)..

“After a careful analysis of the Earth’s past climate fluctuations, climate specialist, Max_OK has predicted that it cannot be ruled out that the temperature average for the next five years will be higher than for the previous five.”

OK, Max?

Max_CH

Comment on Hansen on the ‘standstill’ by Herman Alexander Pope

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The Skeptical Warmist (aka R. Gates)
Ice extent has been decreasing from the peak of the Little Ice Age until the peak of the modern warm period. The oceans are warm and the snow is falling and the cooling will follow. You want evidence of instant cooling. The medieval warm period did not go instantly into the little ice age. It does take some years. The snow extent does melt away, now, but the snow and ice volume is piling up on top of the glaciers and ice packs. This will advance later and bring the cooling.

Comment on Hansen on the ‘standstill’ by Pekka Pirilä

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Max,

You haven’t seen it, because you haven’t looked for it.

Isn’t avoidance of finding the answers a great way for maintaining skepticism a a good reason for putting quotation marks around correction to imply possible fraud.

That’s exactly what you are doing time after time.


Comment on Hansen on the ‘standstill’ by manacker

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When you know someone personally, as Mosher apparently knows Hansen, and the person is one who has an age and gravitas advantage plus a pleasant, friendly personality, it is easy to become convinced that this person is a “great” person (scientist, statesman, whatever).

It’s known as the “halo effect”.

When you DON’T know this person personally, you can more easily judge the person more objectively by his/her actions alone (forgetting the “halo”).

A fact of life.

Max

Comment on Hansen on the ‘standstill’ by timg56

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Joshua,

I’d like to step in here.

There is no disconnect between believing that CO2 is a GHC and will cause warming and acknowledging that the observed rate of increased warming indicates other factors, which may or may not cancel out any net warming from CO2.

It is entirely possible the warming from increasing concentration of CO2 leads to other factors which have a negative feedback. In fact that, in my opinion, has always been one of the sticking points in the debate. Our understanding is far too insufficient, particularly with regard to clouds. The catastrophic aspect of AGW relies heavily on the assumed positive feedback of water vapor. In this case the ass in assumed identifies where the value comes from.

Comment on Hansen on the ‘standstill’ by manacker

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Doc

Obviously the answer depends on whom the villagers ask:

Head Priest: “Slaughter the second born female virgin.”

Virgin: “Slaughter the Priest.”

Max

PS If they asked me, I’d go for slaughtering the Priest. If I got struck dead by lightning as a result, so be it.

Comment on Hansen on the ‘standstill’ by manacker

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Doc

Fan is curiously quiet – after all the post is all about Fan’s hero, “Death Train” Hansen.

Max

Comment on Hansen on the ‘standstill’ by timg56

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hunter,

you’ve touched on a theme I keep trying to draw people’s attention to. There are no shortages of real problems in the world. Worrying about one that to date is mostly make believe is truely something to be afraid of.

Another example to black carbon are coral reefs. The threats to the health of reefs are fairly well known. “Ocean Acidification” is highly questionable as a threat and even if so, is so far down the rankings were one to list the threats as to be not worthy of mention.

I could probably spend the rest of the afternoon listing further examples of supposed problems associated with CO2 that either don’t exist or have causitive factors of far greater impact than CO2 ever could. Until we live in a world of infinite resources, wasting those we have chasing after the boogyman CO2 is the ture crime.

Comment on Hansen on the ‘standstill’ by Berényi Péter

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The thing is water vapor distribution in the atmosphere is <b>not</b> uniform. It means optical depth in the thermal IR band is only weakly related to average specific humidity, it is mainly determined by higher moments of the distribution (a thin metal plate may be absolutely opaque, while a wire fence is almost transparent, even if it has the same amount of metal in it per unit area). Overall greenhouse effect is set by IR optical depth (or rather, by its relation to SW optical depth), <b>not</b> by average concentration of greenhouse gases (water vapor included). Therefore IR optical depth can either go up or down if concentration of well mixed components are increased. There is a good chance it remains pretty stable for a wide range of well mixed component concentrations (at a value of ~1.87), and what is required to have this effect is only a slight scale invariant redistribution of atmospheric humidity. Which can't be represented in gridded computational models of course by any means other than parametrization. What is more, it is not measured either so far, so any parametrization scheme is virtually free of empirical constraints. It is high time to trash the current paradigm in climate science and start measuring optical depth as a function of frequency. It's not so difficult, only needs several satellites on high orbit, wideband imaging facilities installed with good temporal resolution and lots of surface based transmitters, operating in many narrow frequency bands, emitting a unique long period pseudorandom sequence in each band and at each transmitter. Signal to noise ratio of signal intensity measurement can be made high that way, which gives an optical depth map of the atmosphere with good frequency & spatio-temporal resolution. I can't see why this age old hack, developed in radar technology is not applied in climate science. Of course, it may turn out average IR optical depth is in fact more stable than projected by computational models, so what? It is the way science is supposed to work, is not it? On the other hand it may turn out average IR optical depth is proportional to well mixed GHG concentrations with a specific constant of proportionality. Or it may depend on latitude. Whatever. One will never know until it gets <i>measured</i>. The upshot is flatlining temperatures observed in the last one or two decades may be caused by a hidden, as yet unidentified homeostatic mechanism mediated by changes in fine details of water vapor distribution (never represented properly in computational models, neither measured ever). In this case any increase in carbon dioxide concentration (below a very high level) could only have a transient effect. Of course, scale invariant changes in water vapor distribution (like changes in its fractal dimension) can have their own (probably second order) effects on climate, but one can't even start to identify them unil a proper framework is established.

Comment on Hansen on the ‘standstill’ by Girma

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Brandon

You are saying when you replace a thin blanket with a thicker one you get colder.

How is that possible?


Comment on Hansen on the ‘standstill’ by DocMartyn

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‘ A fan of *MORE* discourse | January 17, 2013 at 4:51 pm
the 10,000 meter-tall water column of the Challenger Deep stands in a gravitational field equivalent to (calculates) 250 Kelvins of energy for each water molecule.

Uhhhh … how come the water’s so d*mn cold down there?’
Nice question, were are some more.
Why are the oceans colder at the bottom than at the top?

If this is due to cold water from the surface diving to the bottom, what does it tell us about ‘equilibrium’ models of, say, CO2, when we must have a rapid mechanism for cold surface waters to get to the bottom of the ocean?

However the Mediterranean is fed only by the Atlantic near-surface, rivers and rain water, and yet here too the bottom is colder than the top. Why are the bottom waters as cold as the surface waters found in winter nights?

How long does it take surface brine’s to fall from the cold, wintery night surface to the bottom of the Mediterranean ?

Come on Fan, put me right.

Comment on Hansen on the ‘standstill’ by oneuniverse

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Jim, my exchange with Dr. Curry mentioned above, about the use of expert opinion in the IPCC, was critical on both our parts. I thought my use of the phrase “merely expert opinions” may have clued you in about my evaluation of its worth. (In general, my comments on the IPCC reports have been almost exclusively critical – I won’t recap them here).

Jim:

If the supporting empirical data cannot be provided, then any opinion given is not worth the powder to blow it to hell.

Yes, which is why I asked you to provide the data and analysis to back up your repeated claims that climate senstivity to CO2 is indistinguishable from zero. Your answers have been less than straightforward. You declined to help me determine some of the specifics of your analysis. You still haven’t produced the data and analysis. The analysis you described on the ‘Goldilocks’ thread doesn’t back up your claim, as far as I can tell.

Comment on Open thread weekend by cjshaker

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Alright Mr. BBD, please tell me how you prove anything global about the past. As far as I can see, we have no proxies for GLOBAL temperature.
It looks to me like you can claim any fool thing denying the MWP and RWP…

Chris Shaker

Comment on Hansen on the ‘standstill’ by harrywr2

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“Nonetheless, more-and-more leaders”

How close did Hansen 1970 come to reality? How about Hansen 1988?

To be fair Hansen has adjusted his prognostication’s downward when the evidence became overwhelming. Unfortunately…his followers somehow can’t manage to ‘unburn’ those they burned at the stake….

Comment on Hansen on the ‘standstill’ by A fan of *MORE* discourse

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DocMartyn asks: “The Mediterranean is fed only by the Atlantic near-surface, rivers and rain water, and yet here too the bottom is colder than the top. Why are the bottom waters as cold as the surface waters found in winter nights?

Having disposed of Doug Cotton’s skepticism, it is my pleasure to dispose of yours DocMartyn! Please see:

Deep-Sea Biodiversity in the Mediterranean Sea: The Known, the Unknown, and the Unknowable

“The main hydrological features of the deep Mediterranean Sea are (a) high homeothermy from roughly 300–500 m to the bottom, and bottom temperatures of about 12.8°C to 13.5°C in the western basin and 13.5°C to 15.5°C in the eastern basin (i.e., there are no thermal boundaries, whereas in the Atlantic Ocean the temperature decreases with depth)”

New Discoveries About the Deep Ocean Could Improve Climate Projections

And see in particular Figure 1: Profile of ocean temperature along a meridian at approximately 20°W (eastern Atlantic Ocean)

Concise Answer

• The Mediterranean depths are considerably warmer than Atlantic depths, and

• The Mediterranean’s relative warmth is sustained by relatively shallow Atlantic waters tidally cycling through the Straits of Gibraltar.

So it’s not complicated DocMartyn!

What will the next skeptical question be? \scriptstyle\rule[2.25ex]{0.01pt}{0.01pt}\,\boldsymbol{\overset{\scriptstyle\circ\wedge\circ}{\smile}\,\heartsuit\,{\displaystyle\text{\bfseries!!!}}\,\heartsuit\,\overset{\scriptstyle\circ\wedge\circ}{\smile}}\ \rule[-0.25ex]{0.01pt}{0.01pt}

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