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Comment on Spinning the climate model – observation comparison by Brandon Shollenberger

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Vaughan Pratt:

I fully agree. What you’re pointing out (very reasonably) here would seem to strongly support the idea that tossing a coin 14 times and getting a perfect heads-tail alternation every time ought to be highly improbable.

All that excerpt said is you were (seemingly) wrong on one specific point. Specifically, I said a certain trait gives us no predictive information. This was the exact opposite of what you said about that trait. I can’t see anything in the quoted portion of comment that would “strongly support” that idea.

Why do you believe otherwise?

If I were married, I’d tell you if I had stopped beating my wife yet. Since I’m not, I’ll just point out I never said anything about how probable I think that pattern is. I’ve said your 1/8192 value is wrong because it was calculated in an inappropriate manner, but that’s it.

That would be a fair criticism if your method of analysis bore the slightest resemblance to mine. Since it doesn’t, all that does is to call your approach into question. You made no attempt whatsoever to suppress the considerable high frequency noise in HadCRUT3.

What in the world are you talking about? You posted a link to a couple graphs that showed non-overlapping point estimates from a smooth. I posted a graph showing all point estimates for the smooth. Not only does my “method of analysis” bear “the slightest resemblence” to yours, it is identical.

The fact you’ve used a different method elsewhere doesn’t magically make the method you used here stop being what it is.

You are trying to make far too much out of a simple caricature.

You’ve said several different things about probabilities relating to the “simple caricature” that seem to be baseless, if not false. You shouldn’t be surprised I disputed them. You certainly should think I am “trying to make far too much” of anything when all I’ve done is try to get you to either explain or retract statements that seem wrong.


Comment on Spinning the climate model – observation comparison by mosomoso

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That’s all very well, but the Myceneans did nothing about a sudden cooling in the Ionian Sea…and now it’s all Athens this, Rome that.

We have to act, Beth. After we stop the warming – GIM and Goldman Sachs can handle the money side – we then fund the cooling. With luck, GIM and Goldman Sachs will still be willing to handle the money side. In fact, I’m confident we’ll get lots of help with the money side.

BP – they’re such good sports – will sell us all the solar panels and wind turbines we want. Exxon haven’t had quite the Damascus Road experience that others have had, but they’re quick to point out that their lubricants are just what you need for whole forests of wind towers. (“Mobilgear SHC ™ XMP synthetic gear oil lubricates more than 40,000 wind turbines worldwide.”)

Can we afford it? Are you kidding? With the amount of Australian coal that gets burnt every day? Of course, we can afford it. So pay your taxes, be silent (like a good serf) and hug a turbine today. Or you’ll end up like a Mycenean, fighting with a Cretan over a hindquarter of dead cat.

Comment on Spinning the climate model – observation comparison by Doug Cotton

Comment on Spinning the climate model – observation comparison by Jim D

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The PDO, sun, and taking the beginning of the trend at the last super El Nino can account for this. It is no mystery, and contrary to your assertion natural variations account for this. By the way 362 is low-balling the CO2 amount. The actual expected rise would be 0.15-0.2 in this decade. This is the problem with short-term trends. They are dominated by natural variations. Take the longer term and the trend returns while natural variations reduce in net effect, as they tend to cancel over time.

Comment on Spinning the climate model – observation comparison by Brandon Shollenberger

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Now I’m considering what would happen if one created a series weighted toward a central value that had notable autocorrelation. I think it’d basically just be a tightly bounded Gaussian random walk. Assuming that’s right, I think it’d be a fair model for the non-deterministic portion of the temperature signal.

(If that’s the case, it’d be difficult to imagine how one could extract oscillations from the signal as such can be generated by the noise structure.)

Comment on Spinning the climate model – observation comparison by Jim D

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The warming was predicted 30 or more years ago and occurred as expected. No climate scientist is predicting cooling now.

Comment on Spinning the climate model – observation comparison by Edim

Comment on Spinning the climate model – observation comparison by Jim D

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A comic interpretation, Peter Davies. You should be talking about natural variations rather than the actual feedback changing. Feedback is something that is relatively steady.


Comment on Spinning the climate model – observation comparison by Beth Cooper

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Plus ca change, mosomoso? Some of us here jest don’t have
what it takes ter make good serfs. ‘Hug a turbine today?’ Why,
I’d as soon hug a grizzly.

Comment on Spinning the climate model – observation comparison by Jim D

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If I understand, they say that since 1910 anthropogenic warming has been steady at 0.07-0.08 degrees per decade, or about 0.7-0.8 degrees in the century, which is OK by itself, yet they assume it has been steady since 1910 which far exceeds what anyone said the early century effect should be. It is a far from steady 0.8 degree rise with more of it at the end. Do you believe the anthropogenic effect has been steady and large since 1910? Did it suddenly tick up to that value at 1910? Lots of questions here. Need to see the paper.

Comment on Spinning the climate model – observation comparison by mosomoso

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That’s right. The cooling was predicted 40 or more years ago. After England had its worst known heat, in 1976, right in the middle of the global cooling alarm, poor old H. H. Lamb and the CRU swivelled about so fast they made holes in the carpet. Fortunately, they only had to change one word. “Global” could stay.

That’s show biz – even with a turkey that you know will fold!

Comment on Spinning the climate model – observation comparison by thisisnotgoodtogo

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heinrich, heinrich,heinrich.

You should be quite red-faced but I don;t think you understand why you should be. It’s pitiable, really.

Comment on Spinning the climate model – observation comparison by J Martin

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Hansen said; “which we interpret as a combination of natural variability and a slowdown in the growth rate of the net climate forcing.”

Hansen et used to say that natural variability wasn’t capable of stopping warming, now he says it does but in combination with “a slowdown in the growth rate of the net climate forcing”. co2 growth rate hasn’t slowed, but the sun has.

Is he preparing the way for an about turn, just in case mother nature’s natural variability in the shape of the climate decides to go and make an even bigger mess of their multivariate nonsense climate models which in reality are single variate (co2) models, by entering a period of extended cooling.

Comment on Spinning the climate model – observation comparison by lolwot

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mosomoso, more scientists were predicting warming in the 70s than cooling. See: <a href="http://www.newscientist.com/blogs/shortsharpscience/2008/10/global-cooling-was-a-myth.html" rel="nofollow">Who sparked the global cooling myth?</a>

Comment on Spinning the climate model – observation comparison by lolwot

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“Hansen et used to say that natural variability wasn’t capable of stopping warming”

Citation needed.

Why do you skeptics find the need to fabricate what people have or haven’t said?


Comment on Spinning the climate model – observation comparison by lolwot

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"The following two statements are equivalent, in other words: The 5-year mean global temperature has been flat for a decade The annual mean global temperature has been flat for 15 years" <a href="http://www.woodfortrees.org/plot/gistemp/last:180/trend/plot/gistemp/mean:60/from:1970" rel="nofollow">Not so</a>

Comment on Spinning the climate model – observation comparison by Brandon Shollenberger

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Separate from any disagreements we’ve had, I’d like to discuss something I’ve examined a bit. Perhaps it will even amount to a constructive suggestion. I’ve spent a bit of time today examining what happens when one has autocorrelation in a bounded series. What I’ve found is not exactly what one sees with Gaussian random walks, but there are similarities.

To explain, I started by creating a series with autocorrelation. We know climatic data is influenced by past data, hence the autocorrelation. However, we also know there are boundaries on climatic systems. Those boundaries ensure there are no “runaway” situations in the system. To model this, I introduced a parameter which decreases the probability of a value based upon its deviation from a baseline. This forces stability into the system.

The result is a series with counterbalancing forces. The autocorrelation ensures that once a trend begins, it is more likely to continue than not. The boundaries ensure no trend continues for too long. The result are series that have excursions toward boundaries than reverse direction toward the baseline.

At that point, things get hairy. My results depend largely upon the autocorrelation model I use. A simple model based solely on the value of previous data (such as AR1) gives the coin flip result mentioned above. A more complicated model based on the trend of previous data gives an entirely different result.: It gives oscillations.

To put it simply, we can have oscillations in data purely by assuming a particular structure of the noise in the data. Noise itself can create oscillations in data if the system has the appropriate characteristics. What this suggests is any pattern of oscillations we find in data could be an arbitrary construct of the noise in the system rather than a forced pattern.

Unless I’ve messed up, that’s a provable mathematical results. And it has a significant impact on interpreting any oscillations one might find in a climatic series.

Comment on Open thread weekend by Steven Mosher

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Ya, Don. The story now is that every decision anyone could have made was wrong. That’s weird. When I worked at Northrop there wasnt a single vietnam era vet at work who thought he made a wrong decision. And the other weird thing is that its been cast as a discussion about the war. I didnt see it as that. I saw it as.. one guy saying he never lies, and u catching him in one. The proper response was ‘don you are right’ the captain would not approve. I mean you gotta own that. That makes his decision all the more humanizing.

Comment on Open thread weekend by Brandon Shollenberger

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Since people are disagreeing about what constitutes an ad hominem, I’m going to discuss a pet peeve of mine. Ad hominem refers to a logical fallacy whereby a characteristic of an individual is used in a non-sequitur to discredit an argument. The key is it is a non-sequitur.

Insulting a person just to insult them is not a non-sequitur. Insulting a person when their character is relevant (such as in a political election) is not a non-sequitur. It is only a non-sequitur, and thus an ad hominem attack, when an attack against a person is used as an attack against their argument. As long as the two are kept separate, there is no logical fallacy.

Insults are not inherently ad hominem. Insults are not inherently wrong. Ascribing the title “ad hominem” to any and every insult people may level does nothing but show one’s ignorance. Ad hominems are logical fallacies. They are not merely being “rude.”

Comment on Open thread weekend by Peter Davies

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Willis can ad hom with the best of them and his rant at Judith was no exception. Appealing to authority is another form of ad hom, but not in any derogatory sense. I am too old to engage in childish name calling and I am certainly not up to your speed Don.

I just repeat my preference that the blogosphere focus on the arguments rather than on individuals and I think that you understand this but chosen not debate this with me nor with Kip H nor with Tony B. Goodbye.

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