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Comment on Open thread weekend by R. Gates aka Skeptical Warmist

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Chief Hydro,

Rather than lapse into name calling, perhaps you could instead scientifically explain your definition of “the world” to be temperatures as measured 2m off the ground over land. This seems a rather narrow perspective, or perhaps that is what you intend so as to make some rather narrow point?

Overall Chief Hydro, there has been less energy leaving the ocean than entering it, and hence the oceans have warmed. Given that oceans in general have far more energy than the troposphere 2m off the ground, they are closer to being “the world”, but of course, the best defintion would actually be “the world” including atmosphere, hydrosphere, and cryosphere, or is this too broadly accurate for you?


Comment on Open thread weekend by Chief Hydrologist

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Understanding Arctic temperature variability is essential for assessing possible future melting of the Greenland ice sheet, Arctic sea ice and Arctic permafrost. Temperature trend reversals in 1940 and 1970 separate two Arctic warming periods (1910–1940 and 1970–2008) by a significant 1940–1970 cooling period. Analyzing temperature records of the Arctic meteorological stations we find that (a) the Arctic amplification (ratio of the Arctic to global temperature trends) is not a constant but varies in time on a multi-decadal time scale, (b) the Arctic warming from 1910–1940 proceeded at a significantly faster rate than the current 1970–2008
warming, and (c) the Arctic temperature changes are highly correlated with the Atlantic Multi-decadal Oscillation (AMO) suggesting the Atlantic Ocean thermohaline circulation is linked to the Arctic temperature variability on a multi-decadal time scale. Citation: Chylek, P., C. K. Folland,
G. Lesins, M. K. Dubey, and M. Wang (2009), Arctic air
temperature change amplification and the Atlantic Multidecadal
Oscillation, Geophys. Res. Lett., 36, L14801, doi:10.1029/
2009GL038777.

Perhaps we are wrong and temperatures wont decline in the Arctic as elsewhere. Ignore it? Put it in some sort of reasonable context perhaps. The failure the acknowledge this as a possibility even is stupendously short sighted.

Comment on Open thread weekend by Jim D

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The Arctic sea-ice loss is an example of something happening faster than the climate models predicted, yet it draws less attention than the pause in global surface temperature where climate models are being criticized for seeming to be too fast unless you allow for natural variability.

Comment on Open thread weekend by JCH

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Rather than lapse in name calling? Lol, he would be down cutting and pasting.

Comment on Open thread weekend by Chief Hydrologist

Comment on The art and science of effective science advice by Rud Istvan

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Dr. Curry’s post was on the complexities of science advice to politicians, not on the truth or falsity of climate science per se, or on the cultural/political values around same. Her post remains a worthy, deep, and complex topic. I will continue to maintain, since there has been no on topic response whatsoever, that the general answer to her originally posed question is both process and situational dependent. That is, there is no single or simple answer.

And, coming from 15 years of past professional consulting experience, I might have some SME in declaring her subject matter about ‘as clear as mud’. Therefore a worthy topic for serious discussion here.

Comment on Open thread weekend by WebHubTelescope (@WHUT)

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How could I be showing xenophobia while being proud of the work that WE do at CERN?

Comment on Congressional hearing rescheduled by Peter Lang

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A hell of a lot of motivated reasoning by the CAGW doomsayer comrades in this exchange.

But still no substantiation has been forthcoming for the pile of unsubstantiated assertions in Bar R’s first post and a lot more added since.

In what way has Lomborg misled Congress? Please be succinct and specific.

I say he did not and you’ve got it wrong. But I don’t understand why you reckon he did. You may disagree with him, but that is your opinion, it does not demonstrate he misled Congress or said anything wrong. I suggest you have applied your own motivated reasoning to such an extreme extent that you may believe what you (the four CAGW doomsayer comrades) are saying, or you may be trying to mislead others who haven’t the patience to look critically at the bogus and contorted arguments you have presented. Joshua fell for it and believed what Bart R and Willard said without looking carefully at it (or if he did he chose to gloss over and ignore the bogus arguments). That demonstrates his motivated reasoning. Michael the same. I haven’t had a discussion with Willard before. I now realise he is an extremist and no amount of dishonesty twisting and distortion is too much as far as he is concerned if it assists him to propagate his beliefs.

The motivated reasoning you four have employed here is an excellent example of just how dishonest are many of the people who support the CAGW alarmist movement. No wonder the general population is becoming far more skeptical about your beliefs.


Comment on Open thread weekend by Max_OK

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captdallas and pokerguy aren’t wimps. Both have the courage to take a risk that can’t affect them in their lifetimes.

Comment on Open thread weekend by Chief Hydrologist

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JCH,

You are an utterly pointless troll with nothing of any substance to contribute at all. Snarks about quoting peer reviewed science seem entirely without any merit other than to distract from a message you are ideologically incapable of acknowledging. No pretence even at science merely trivial AGW space cadet snarks. Groupthink in your case as you are incapable of cogitating about climate at all.

Gates makes the point again and again that I fail to look at the oceans when I have again and again discussed Karina von Schuckmann an ARGO. Groundhog day again obviously. I think I have said that to him before. A pointless nonsense. Insults? Please – move onto something new. Discuss the details. Accept the possibility that the world isn’t warming for at least a decade to 3. Sing songs. Beat a different drum. I don’t really care – but end the silliness that is the sum of your contributions.

Comment on Congressional hearing rescheduled by Peter Lang

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[Sorry again, Repost to fix the formatting, again]

A hell of a lot of motivated reasoning by the CAGW doomsayer comrades in this exchange.

But still no substantiation has been forthcoming for the pile of unsubstantiated assertions in Bar R’s first post and a lot more added since.

In what way has Lomborg misled Congress? Please be succinct and specific.

I say he did not and you’ve got it wrong. But I don’t understand why you reckon he did. You may disagree with him, but that is your opinion, it does not demonstrate he misled Congress or said anything wrong. I suggest you have applied your own motivated reasoning to such an extreme extent that you may believe what you (the four CAGW doomsayer comrades) are saying, or you may be trying to mislead others who haven’t the patience to look critically at the bogus and contorted arguments you have presented. Joshua fell for it and believed what Bart R and Willard said without looking carefully at it (or if he did he chose to gloss over and ignore the bogus arguments). That demonstrates his motivated reasoning. Michael the same. I haven’t had a discussion with Willard before. I now realise he is an extremist and no amount of dishonesty twisting and distortion is too much as far as he is concerned if it assists him to propagate his beliefs.

The motivated reasoning you four have employed here is an excellent example of just how dishonest are many of the people who support the CAGW alarmist movement. No wonder the general population is becoming far more skeptical about your beliefs.

Comment on Open thread weekend by Chief Hydrologist

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Funny. Do you think we believe the models when they fail to include decadal variation? The nonsense continues unabated.

Comment on Open thread weekend by Beth Cooper

Comment on The art and science of effective science advice by Max_OK

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JC said : “I hope that my testimony was convincing to the Republicans, and helps move them to a more defensible and rational position on climate science.”
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I hope you won’t be disappointed.

Comment on Open thread weekend by Beth Cooper

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Max,
This will be published in Controversy Corner
in the first edition of S U-g Journal… controversy
Corner is a collection of letters, poems, dealing
with serf concerns.. Your copy will be delivered.
Bts


Comment on The art and science of effective science advice by srp

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A problem with much commentary on this issue is that people take as obviously correct the “regulatory science” applied in familiar domains, such as pharmaceuticals, highway safety, nuclear power and radiation protection, gun control, airline safety, endangered species, toxic chemicals, intelligence tests, etc. The idea seems to be that all those past problematic applications of science to public policy are just fine and the only cases where we need to worry about science advice are when new regulations are proposed.

Now, one could take the view that as they are ultimately the outcomes of a deliberative democratic process, all of the regulatory policies we have are “correct” by definition. In that case, one would have no independent criterion by which to criticize any policy and all we would have is a political free-for-all whose power-driven results could not be questioned. Whatever happened would be best by definition, including the current feeble action with respect to CO2.

I would feel better about all the consensus-mongering and consensus-flaying on the climate issue if we paid similar attention to the nature and credibility of the “consensuses” behind much current public policy. In some cases, we have policy based on a ginned-up consensus, e.g. the linear-no-threshold model of radiation damage; in others, we have policy in contravention of scientific consensus, e.g. the higher regulatory costs per life-year saved applied to nuclear power than to other technologies. Perhaps these twists and turns are each individually justifiable (no-threshold is a simple, conservative rule that everyone understands; citizens feel worse about dying from radiation-induced causes than about dying from chemically induced causes) but the mere fact that such rationalizations can be found is not evidence that the pattern of policy makes sense, or that scientific advice has helped make it better.

Comment on Open thread weekend by DocMartyn

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Jim would you like to share with the class how CO2 is able to draw forth the cold dense brines of the ocean depths and replace then with the warmer, less dense, surface waters?

Comment on The art and science of effective science advice by Max_OK

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Alexander Biggs: “I was once carpeted by our head officr for giving advice to an agency that conflicted with the conventianal management views. This eventually resulted in my forced early retirement.”
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I’m skeptical because I thought it was hard to be forced out of a government job. I thought you had to do something really bad like stealing money or physically punching your boss in the nose.

Comment on The art and science of effective science advice by stevepostrel

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It is not simply the complexity and political pressure on decision makers that leads to problems of bad science advice. Let’s take a much simpler issue than climate policy where “expert” opinions dominate: Approval of drugs for human use.

As a matter of practice, today’s FDA requires 1) proof of safety and efficacy in animals, 2) a specific identified mechanism of action before even considering approval, and 3) clinical trials showing evidence of human efficacy superior to existing drugs. The FDA also 4) prohibits “off-label” marketing by owners of drug patents even if doctors and researchers are openly discussing the off-label benefits of a drug. Not one of these policies is easily justified on a “scientific” basis.

On 1), it’s often remarked that drugs that work well in animals fail in human trials; what is more insidious is that lots of drugs that fail in animal models might well be effective in humans (e.g. aspirin) but we will never know. In fact, it is a commonplace among workers in the pharma industry that aspirin could not be approved today, a sobering fact that by itself should tell us that the system has gone off the rails.

What expert science advisors will take responsibility for this state of affairs? Have they skewed their research to fit the needs of the politicians?

On 2), all drugs before the 1970s were approved without knowing exactly how they work. Of the drugs approved later with purported mechanisms, later research, when it has been performed, has often found that those mechanisms were either spurious or partial. (There is evolutionary reasoning to suppose that single-pathway, highly targeted drugs are less likely to be effective because biological organisms need to be robust to blockages or up-regulation of single pathways.) Therefore, many recent drugs were found to work and were approved based on a fictional theory of action. Yet new drugs are still expected to produce these fictions.

Is there a valid “consensus” that this procedure is defensible? Are the scientists simply being overwhelmed by politics?

On 3), asking each new drug to beat the existing standard rather than a placebo is counterproductive because any trial population aggregates hidden patient characteristics. A drug might beat placebo but not the existing standard drug in such an aggregate population while having superior performance or lower side effects on an unsuspected sub-population. If the drug were approved, doctors would be able to try it out on patients who responded poorly to the existing standard treatment, and so find, by trial and error, these sub-populations that benefit from the new drug. FDA rules prevent this form of progress. Instead, the drug company must try to predict in advance of the trial the sub-populations that will benefit most from the new drug and then set up the trial to include only those types of patients. But, given 2), that is not really doable most of the time. Humorously, if the drug were to be approved, doctors could still prescribe it “off-label” to whatever sub-population they wanted.

Whom should we blame for this outcome? The politicians? The public?

That leads to 4). Aside from the blatant First Amendment infringement entailed by FDA “off-label” marketing rules, we have the absurd spectacle that, for example, chemotherapy drugs are prescribed “off-label” the majority of the time because they are mixed and matched based on clinical experience and the odd academic (not FDA-submitted) clinical trial. We know with certainty in this case that the presumption that drugs should not be prescribed “off-label” is ridiculous; no responsible oncologist would harm her patients by restricting her treatments to those the FDA has approved. Yet the FDA shields its policy under the guise of insisting on “scientific evidence” and the silence of the lambs is pervasive.

Before we try to apply “science advice” to the hugely complex, socio-economic-geographic-political issue of trying to force the world off fossil fuels, we might first try to figure out why the “science advice” applied by technocrats to the much simpler issue of drug approval so patently contravenes widely known facts.

Hint: I don’t think you can just blame the politicians.

Comment on The art and science of effective science advice by Steven Mosher

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manaker

“2xCO2 theoretically gets us 3.7 Wm-2 radiative forcing; plug that into S-B at 255°K and you get ~1°C warming from doubling CO2.

Let’s accept that at face value.”

I count this as a victory of common sense.

3.7Watts is what our best science tells us. That science is used used in engineering everyday. Our best science says we can expect 1C of warming.

everything beyond that is the question.

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