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Comment on How to humble a wing nut by David Springer

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ARGO numbers are pencil whipped to show something that’s agreeable with the cli-fi narrative.

Keven Trenberth in 2011:

Trenberth questions whether the Argo measurements are mature enough to tell as definite a story as Hansen lays out. He has seen many discrepancies among analyses of the data, and there are still “issues of missing and erroneous data and calibration,” he said. The Argo floats are valuable, he added, but “they’re not there yet.”

I suggest watching this 2011 video starting at 34 minutes where Trenberth discusses OHC measurements and says data prior to 2007 is trash and should be disregarded.

Kevin Trenberth: The Role of the Oceans in Climate


Comment on Mainstreaming ECS ~ 2 C by JCH

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JCH

Yeah. And if the “lack of warming” continues for another decade or three, at will be even lower.

Right?

I don’t know, but my hunch would be it would depend largely on what happens in the oceans with respect to OHC and SLR.

Comment on Pasteur’s quadrant by Marci

Comment on How to humble a wing nut by Tomas Milanovic

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I would like to ask the denizens if you think that participation at Climate Etc. and elsewhere in the climate blogosphere has moderated your position on climate change in any way, and has increased your tolerance for opposing positions.

My position on climate change started some 15 years ago by observing the Milankovitch cycles.
Looking at that there are only 2 possible attitudes :
1) We clearly see evidence of pseudoperiodical chaotic oscillations that characterize the dynamics of the system for a large volume of the parameter space.
2) What we see is irrelevant and in any case has no meaning for the dynamics of the system in the future.

I strongly support 1) and in the “test” described,in the study I would have easily constructed a chain of arguments validating it. Of course the chain would not be “mechanistic” (in the sense of deterministically predictable) because the spatio temporal chaos per definition has not this property and this is something that the author of the study apparently ignored what shows that he has no clue about modern physics.

From there one can easily infer that :
- as the system just passed a minimum, It is tautologically heading to a (next) maximum. E.g it is necessarily warming.
- as it is necessarily warming with or without CO2, the anthropic CO2 is just one perturbation among the millions of degrees of freedom.
- the apparent stability of the climate attractor over 3 billions of years suggests that the topology is approximately invariant for a large interval of degrees of freedom. I cannot prove that but the existence of an attractor for N-S equations points also in this direction.
- from there follows that the CO2 perturbation on an infiitesimally small time scale (we are only talking about 1 century) can only change the derivatives of climatic variables but not the Milankovitch dynamics. E.g when we reach the next maximum, we will head to a (next) minimum again.
- last but not least all of the above means that the probability distribution of future dynamical states which is so dear to The Chief and to everybody familiar with non linear dynamics will be only slightly perturbed by the CO2 perturbation. And even this perturbation will tend to zero on larger time scales (millenium and above).

As this is what I think is right theory of climate, frequenting Climate Etc actually increased my intolerance for the CAGW addicts because I realised that they are painfully ignorant about the whole physical paradigm of non linear dynamics. Most of them don’t understand any physics at all and those who do, are stuck in the strict determinismus of the 19th century what is certainly inadequate to deal with one of the most complex dynamical systems we know – the climate.
It is like refusing quantum mechanics to establish a theory of atomic nuclei – a true wing nuttery.

Comment on How to humble a wing nut by Edim

Comment on How to humble a wing nut by Peter Lang

Comment on How to humble a wing nut by Peter Davies

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Tomas said “What we see is irrelevant and in any case has no meaning for the dynamics of the system in the future.”

In other words the recorded empirical data is insufficient temporally and spatially to derive conclusions on a system that is millions of years old? I can see the logic of this but too many participants on both sides of the AGW debate speculate on future climate trends based on short term movements of CO2 and T.

Macro climate science awaits a new paradigm (probably involving non-linear dynamics and chaos theory) in order for it to progress and that micro climate dynamics of the atmosphere and the oceans require the application of quantum mechanics in order for a better appreciation of their underlying physics.

I always appreciate your comments Tomas and hope that the early work of Tsonis et al (that is continually put forward by the Chief) is continued as this seems to be the area that offers the most promise.

Comment on How to humble a wing nut by GarryD

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Rud,
You just made Judith blush.


Comment on How to humble a wing nut by J Martin

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Gates, if the oceans run the show then how do the oceans get their heat, you’re surely not going to tell me that it is from down welling radiation from co2.

Basically solar radiation heats the oceans, modulated by cloud cover which in turn is controlled by solar magnetism / cosmic rays.

In short, the sun controls heat entering the system and the oceans then run the show as you put it.

Sounds like you could take the ‘warmist’ tag from your handle straight away.

Comment on How to humble a wing nut by AK

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<blockquote>the anthropic CO2 is just one perturbation among the millions of degrees of freedom.</blockquote> But isn't "<i>perturbation</i>" just another myth, a semantic artifact of using linear metaphors to describe a complex non-linear system? <blockquote>the apparent stability of the climate attractor over 3 billions of years suggests that the topology is approximately invariant for a large interval of degrees of freedom.</blockquote> er... Are you familiar with the supposed "snowball earth" episodes? Seems like a pretty wide "<i>approximately invariant</i>".

Comment on Mainstreaming ECS ~ 2 C by WebHubTelescope (@whut)

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About 1/3 of the global temperature anomaly is being diverted into OHC. So a TCR of 2C translates to an ECS of 3C per doubling of CO2.

Comment on How to humble a wing nut by vukcevic

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Salute Milanovic
To grossly paraphrase Von Neumann: Climate change is a bit like an elephant’s jungle trail (randomness with a purpose), whereby the elephant is a Milankovic cycle, far north Atlantic the elephant’s trunk, ENSO its tail, and CO2 analogous to few flees that come and go.

Comment on How to humble a wing nut by Jack Mclaughlin

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As a non-scientist I feel priviledged to be here. I did allright as a small business man and when I retired I put the majority of my savings into two freight railroads….Burlington Northern and Norfolk Southern. Some years later Warren Buffett decided to purchase BNSF at a 30% premium. Thanks Warren, I have been using the proceeds to finance my trips. Last year I took a 3 week tour of Russia with a personal 24 hour guide and Interpreteur for the entire time…God she was so beautiful. Of course the oldtimers over there were talking about how severe their recent winters were.
Sorry I got off subject but when I started to read stories in the past year on other sites where deserts would be turned into croplands I began to wonder if one day our CO2 extractions would exceed our emissions and if so what would be the consequences. I guess my kind of pondering would be blasphemous to some here but I thank those who tried to help me understand. But I am still wondering.

Comment on How to humble a wing nut by GarryD

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Rud,
I wish those answers were available to me.
Fortunately, the World is inhabited by many exceptional people.

Why do people like to continually focus on the small at the expense of the important? I have been told that adaptive skills are also a sign of higher intelligence. I remain optimistic that you can turn some lights on. Keep up the fight. You do a nice job.

Comment on How to humble a wing nut by GarryD

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Point taken. We will see?

In my mere 66 years to the present the population has exploded. Is an viable energy plan even on the table for the optimistic scenario you outline? It would seem that the World has some work to do?


Comment on How to humble a wing nut by Jacob

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Correct.
I’m following climate blogs for some 10 years, and am getting only more convinced that the alarmism isn’t based on science.

Comment on How to humble a wing nut by jacobress

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“that we can measure the global average temperature to within tenths of a degree,”
Furthermore:
We can calculate the average temp a thousand years back using proxies, to a tenths of a degree.

Comment on ‘All-of-the-above’ approach to energy policy by Rob Starkey

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Gates

I have to spend quite a bit of time in DC. Your argument seemed to be that the motive of the war in Iraq was to help Haliburton. Sorry, but that is a political perspective imo.

Comment on ‘All-of-the-above’ approach to energy policy by Rob Starkey

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Joshua
No, I did not understand your point but I do now. I suspect the math behind your numbers is highly subject to debate especially the supposed increase in health care costs.
Construction of infrastructure in order to promote or support business expansion is not considered a subsidy. The localities that actually fund the construction of said infrastructure go through an economic analysis to determine whether the additional tax revenues generated by the business will be adequate to fund the investment in the infrastructure over the long term. That really is not a subsidy, but a long term investment by the city or State. All of these “investments” do not turn out well, but the analysis is pretty simple.

Comment on ‘All-of-the-above’ approach to energy policy by Max_OK

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Max_CH, I disagree. I believe it would be good to apply Chinese solutions to the US problem and vice versa. For example, the personal savings rate in China is 50%, according to the IMF. In contrast, too many Americans spend almost all their incomes on consumption, and hardly save at all. It would be a huge improvement if the rate in America was one-half of the Chinese rate (25%). Conversely, the Chinese could loosen up a bit and spend more on consumption.

On another topic you say: “The current “malaise” there is, IMHO, a result of a general lack of confidence that life is getting better than it once was.’ I presume you mean the U.S. I don’t know about the “malaise,” but I think it’s unrealistic to expect life to endlessly get better and better. Americans are spoiled if that’s what they expect.

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