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Comment on Letter to the dragon slayers by Richard T. Fowler

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The answer to the question is not unambiguously observable based on the sentence as originally written. Hence my expression of uncertainty. And hence, there was no clear inaccuracy, unless the sentence was rewritten as suggested. I also have no degree in English, but I do have a few decades’ experience in reading and interpreting the language. So, I felt qualified to comment on that, as I’m sure you did as well.

My parsing of your sentence for strict accuracy was done simply because you expressed concern about accuracy.

RTF


Comment on Impact of declining Arctic sea ice on winter snowfall by curryja

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actually, the correlations aren’t with total NH snowfall, but rather certain regions, see fig 1 of the paper.

Comment on Impact of declining Arctic sea ice on winter snowfall by curryja

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Leigh, agreed, there is a potential negative feedback here, esp if the snowfall melts later in the spring.

Comment on Impact of declining Arctic sea ice on winter snowfall by Robert

Comment on AMS members surveyed on global warming by NW

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dipsh_t. Very witty. Did you make it up yourself?

Seriously CK, as you probably have not noticed, I usually read your comments, both rambling and scientific, without comment. Your rambles I ignore, and your science I read with interest. Reflect. Nuff said.

Comment on AMS members surveyed on global warming by David Young

Comment on AMS members surveyed on global warming by Chris Colose

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The initial value problem does not technically go away, but it becomes a decidedly smaller fraction of the uncertainty as time progresses relative to structural/parametric uncertainties in models, as well as in the particular scenario (e.g., emissions) one follows in the future. A good illustration of this is in Hawkins and Sutton (2009)
http://www.met.reading.ac.uk/~ed/publications/hawkins_sutton_2009_BAMS.pdf

Note at the end, Figure 3 and 4 (I particularly like 4c as an illustrative tool). The uncertainty in prediction is some combination of initial conditions, scenario, models, and the relative fraction of these competing uncertainties changes with time. The initial condition relevance drops off rapidly with lead time, while the scenario is rather unimportant until several decades out. A similar plot for the British Isles is shown- the importance of internal variability increases at smaller spatial scales and shorter timescales. Note that the decadal-prediction issue involves a rather complex intersection between all these sorts of uncertainty.

This is all well-known, and arises from the fact that the signal in a climate forcing will inevitably grow as the magnitude of internal variability stays roughly constant. The system itself is also constrained by the laws of physics, e.g., by the top of the atmosphere energy balance.

Such statistical predictability is not surprising. Summer in the NH is consistently warmer than winter. If the absorbed solar energy by the planet were to increase, the planet warms. Even global precipitation/evaporation is constrained by energetic arguments. As another example, the width of the Hadley cell can be approximated to first-order on the back of an envelope, and it’s trivial to explain, why for example, Venus has a near-global Hadley cell extent while on Earth it only reaches to near 30 degrees. A consequence of the pole-to-equator temperature gradient and rotation on Earth gives rise to baroclinic instability that we see manifest in mid-latitude cyclones ans associated warm/cold fronts. In the tropics, deep convection only sets in above a certain SST threshold (usually above about 26.5 C in the modern climate). New York does not have 10-year trends of Florida-like temperatures, although on individual days it can. A meaningful climatology can also be established of hurricane track patterns, etc (e.g., hurricanes do not spontaneously form around the Poles and travel around the worlds oceans). We see fairly predictable responses between different regions of the globe during ENSO (e.g., most El Niño winters are mild over western Canada, and wet in areas of the Southern U.S). We cannot predict an individual El Nino event 50 years from now, however, but fishing/agriculture, etc is highly sensitive and responds in a rather specific way to announcements of an upcoming El Nino/La Nina.

All of these things are part of the reference, equilibrium climate we are used to. If you inserted a small lake into a grid box in some climate model, and all of a sudden you got radically different climate sensitivity estimates and projections out to 2100, that might be more evidence that one cannot meaningfully do climate analysis. Yet there is no indication that the climate behaves in a way that is highly sensitive to initial conditions for longer-term projections, and explanations that invoke chaos ignore the observed fact that the climate behaves within constraints, globally and locally, that we have all grown accustomed to.

Comment on AMS members surveyed on global warming by Alex Heyworth

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Very much tongue in cheek, Peter. Happy to acknowledge your existence!


Comment on AMS members surveyed on global warming by Jim D

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David, no, Andy Lacis has the correct usage for climate and weather problems. Perhaps atmospheric science uses a mathematical analogy, but strictly boundary problems are defined by their constraints (boundaries) and not by their initial values. I think your confusion is that you may consider initial values to include atmospheric composition and continental configuration, but in the earth system models, the initial condition is just the state of the atmosphere, land and ocean in terms of its state variables (prognostic variables). This is a rigorous definition of the initial state because these are the variables that are stepped forwards by the dynamic and land-surface equations, hence the term initial value problem. In mathematical systems with prognostic equations, initial value problems are those that depend on the initial setting of the prognostic variables. I think you can see that climate statistical states don’t depend on initial patterns of the wind, temperature, moisture, etc.(weather state).

Comment on AMS members surveyed on global warming by Captain Kangaroo

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Enough said – I don’t think so. You make idiotic claims about economists and respond with an idiotic remark about nonentities when I post a link to Sinclair Davidson who wrote precisely on this problem in economics.

That’s why I called you a dipsh-t. Can’t see any reason to change my mind here.

Comment on Lindzen’s Seminar at the House of Commons by Latimer Alder

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@martin lack

I read the article. And, as I was unsurprised to learn, it does not show very much of the argument that you think it does.

It actually does little more than say that the Conservative Think Tanks have been responsible for publishing some sceptical literature. And then gives a lot of opinion.

Here is the money quote

‘The central tactic employed by CTTs in the war of ideas is the production of an endless flow of printed material ranging from books to editorials designed for public consumption to policy briefs aimed at policy-makers and journalists, combined with frequent appearances by spokespersons on TV and radio’.

Which is hardly a huge surprise. In next week’s shock revelation, the Bishop of Rome reveals Catholic tendencies, and Bruin the Bear discusses his outdoor sylvan lavatorial habits

Martin, I know you like to have big books around you so that you believe that all you have to do is wave the relevant Chapter and Verse as the end of any discussion. That the final words on all topics have already been written by the great god(s) who came before. Be they from roman occupied Judea or from Jim Hansen or
some other guru that you have decided to latch on to this year.

But life ain’t like that. It’s far far more complicated. The scientific method is a way of trying to unpick that complexity. But you explicitly reject the ways of science in favour of the advancement of your faith.

To exaggerate your position only a little

‘Bugger the evidence, I don’t want to know. But Here Is The Word of the Prophet. Believe Deniers Believe, or I, Lack, will Smite You!’

Comment on AMS members surveyed on global warming by David Young

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That’s the whole point of what I said. The Schmidt “doctrine of the attractor” has no evidence other than the empirical observation that “every time I run the model, it seems to settle down to the same climate.” Chris, this is just nonsense. If there is too much numerical dissipation, the result would be exactly as Schmidt describes. As I said before, absent rigorous error control and sensitivity analysis, no one with experience with these things would credit this empirical evidence. It is circular and needs the kind of rigorous analysis that your buddies in the “communications” ministry are at pains to avoid acknowledging is needed. I would suggest you look at Wilcox’s book on turbulence modeling to see how questionable the assumptions of subgrid models really are.

Think of it this way. Cloud feedbacks are critical to climate outcomes. Clouds are dependent on the details of dynamics. This cannot be well modeled in GCM’s that don’t even model correctly the momentum equation in the vertical direction and thus can’t model convection correctly.

Chris, just consider the influence of the configuration of continents on climate. It contradicts the “doctrine of the attractor.”

Circular reasoning based on models is not physics, it just shows that too much dissipation will stabilize any computational model.

Comment on AMS members surveyed on global warming by David Young

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JimD, I now know you are confused. The alleged independence of the climate on initial conditions is not a mathematical consequence, it is an imperical observation of running flawed models over and over again. It has no rigor and is circular reasoning. The climate is an initial value problem. The only difference is that now we are using a “statistical” norm to measure the output. Like I said, you need to read up on partial differential equations.

Comment on Lindzen’s Seminar at the House of Commons by scepticalWombat

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You might like to look at <a href="http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2012/03/misrepresentation-from-lindzen/#more-11099" rel="nofollow">another reason for laughing at this graph</a>

Comment on AMS members surveyed on global warming by Captain Kangaroo

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The ‘uncertainty in prediction’ stems form 2 sources

There is widespread evidence of abrupt climate change – from interannular to millennial scales. ‘Recent scientific evidence shows that major and widespread climate changes have occurred with startling speed. For example, roughly half the north Atlantic warming since the last ice age was achieved in only a decade, and it was accompanied by significant climatic changes across most of the globe. Similar events, including local warmings as large as 16°C, occurred repeatedly during the slide into and climb out of the last ice age. Human civilizations arose after those extreme, global ice-age climate jumps. Severe droughts and other regional climate events during the current warm period have shown similar tendencies of abrupt onset and great persistence, often with adverse effects on societies.

Abrupt climate changes were especially common when the climate system was being forced to change most rapidly. Thus, greenhouse warming and other human alterations of the earth system may increase the possibility of large, abrupt, and unwelcome regional or global climatic events. The abrupt changes of the past are not fully explained yet, and climate models typically underestimate the size, speed, and extent of those changes. Hence, future abrupt changes cannot be predicted with confidence, and climate surprises are to be expected.

The new paradigm of an abruptly changing climatic system has been well established by research over the last decade, but this new thinking is little known and scarcely appreciated in the wider community of natural and social scientists and policy-makers.’ NAS (2002) Abrupt Climate Change: Inevitable Surprises. The idea of chaos confuses the poor little things – what we say instead is that abrupt climate change is non-linear. In the Earth climate system there are control variables and non-linear responses – as in the definition of abrupt change in the NAS report. It happens on decadal scales as shown by Tsonis and colleagues. These decadal changes are far less predictable than ENSO even. It is categorically nonsense to imagine that climate will necessarily evolve steadily over the century in response to ordered forcing.

The other source of prediction error is an unknown divergence in solution space. Small differences in the range of plausible inputs – either as initial or boundary conditions – result in divergence of the solution with time as a result of sensitive dependence and structural instability. (James McWilliams, 2007, Irreducible Imprecision in Atmospheric and Oceanic Simulations, PNAS) Here is figure 1 from McWilliams showing divergence of 2 solutions from initial points that are close together – http://s1114.photobucket.com/albums/k538/Chief_Hydrologist/?action=view&current=sensitivedependence.gif

Climate is almost certainly abrupt and non-linear. Climate models are certainly chaotic. I can only conclude that Chris and Andy have a deficiency of natural philosophy and mathematics.

Best regards
Captain Kangaroo


Comment on AMS members surveyed on global warming by Anteros

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+1
Especially your last point.
Which means that as long as we see it, and understand it as advocacy (for something absurd) we won’t be led astray.

Comment on AMS members surveyed on global warming by Faustino

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MarkB, the sentence referred to 70% as being a large majority:

“a large majority indicated that human activity (59%), or human activity and natural causes in more or less equal amounts (11%), were the primary causes.”

Comment on AMS members surveyed on global warming by Anteros

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And it very much depends on the question, and what people mean by scepticism.
If you ask a load of sane, informed, intelligent scientists whether human activity has an effect on the climate, you will tend to get an almost unanimous “yes”. And that includes all the people that self-label as sceptic.
It is only in the minds of the true believers in Armaggedon that sceptics are seen as denying basic physics.

Comment on AMS members surveyed on global warming by A Lacis

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David,
In describing climate as a “boundary value” problem, the main point that I was wanting to make is that for specified (fixed) radiative forcing boundary conditions, there exists an equilibrium temperature that the climate system is being forced to approach. If the climate model is arbitrarily started at some hotter temperature, the model will cool toward that equilibrium value. If the model is started at a colder temperature, it will warm as it approaches the equilibrium value (which is a function of the radiative forcings).
(Of course the climate system, as do climate models, has natural variability about the equilibrium point, so the climate system will approach its equilibrium point in an averaged sense.)

When we think of climate modeling, what we are actually trying to model is time evolution of the climate system as it approaches its evolving equilibrium point (because the radiative boundary conditions keep changing). Typically, the climate model might be ‘spun up’ for a couple hundred years to reach equilibrium for say, 1850 conditions. Then, all the time-varying radiative forcing changes are applied and the climate trend to current climate conditions (and beyond) is calculated. This of course has the characteristics of being an initial value problem (relative to 1850 conditions), and we are specifically interested in just how the climate system evolves in response to the time dependent changes in radiative forcing.

Getting the model to the 1850 equilibrium conditions is an example of the classical ‘boundary value’ problem where we are not sensitive to the actual model starting conditions several centuries earlier. Likewise, once the radiative forcings become fixed, the model will then be approaching its equilibrium point, without really caring by what path it got there. In between, we may well be looking at the climate system as an initial value problem, but that is only in the sense of the climate system time-evolution in response to the time-dependent radiative forcings for which the sign of the radiative energy balance at TOA is a clear indication of whether the climate system is warming or cooling.

Comment on AMS members surveyed on global warming by cwon14

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