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Comment on Week in review by Faustino

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My response to Paul Voosen:

Paul, you see an issue that people do not respond to the scientific evidence per se. Yet in your second paragraph, you state as a fact that “Year by year … temperatures rise.” That is simply untrue, none of the major temperature series used by climate scientists show that, some indicate no warming since 1998. But, given the thrust of the article, if someone stated, based on the evidence, that temperatures were not rising, you’ld attribute it, incorrectly, to their world view.


Comment on Sagan’s baloney detection rules by Mike Flynn

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Michael,

And NASA have proved their superiority by being unable to manage to do anything except pay outsiders to achieve things, recently.

On the other hand, NASA was apparently responsible for Tang, and ball point pens which would operate in microgravity. Orange juice and pencils are apparently better and cheaper.

Individuals innovate. Organisations take the credit. Genius is random.

Live well and prosper,

Mike Flynn.

Comment on More renewables? Watch out for the Duck Curve by curryja

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Definitely! Open commons here. Pls post link to your site, sounds interesting

Comment on More renewables? Watch out for the Duck Curve by Stephen Segrest

Comment on More renewables? Watch out for the Duck Curve by Peter Lang

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Segrest,

Yes, So what”s your point? Why did you start a new sub-thread instead of keeping it together with the rest of the discussion?

Do you disagree? Do you have authoritative figures to refute these statements?

Comment on Week in review by mosomoso

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Tony, people interested in climate change, radical shifts, extremes, counter-extremes would be riveted by global conditions in the late 1870s – to pick one prime example.

But where do you find someone with an interest in climate change? The trillions are frittered on “Climate Change”…but who’s interested in actual climate change?

Comment on Sagan’s baloney detection rules by Bad Andrew

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“you dont beat science with words”

This is the same guy who “estimates”, “unicorns” and “you’re wrong”‘s his way to answers he likes.

Andrew

Comment on Week in review by jim2


Comment on Challenges to understanding the role of the ocean in climate science by Forrest Gardener

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Quote: Evaporation from the ocean supplies 90% of the water vapor that eventually becomes rain and snow, and this evaporation is a source of heat to the atmosphere.

Maybe I need to dig out my old text books, but doesn’t evaporation remove heat from the atmosphere? Otherwise where does the energy come from to effect the change of state from liquid to gas?

Apologies in advance if I’m wrong.

Comment on Challenges to understanding the role of the ocean in climate science by Ward of the wood

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” and this evaporation is a source of heat to the atmosphere. ”

Yes – but it is also a source of cooling to the surface.

The question then is where does the heat do most damage to the Planet? This is clearly a much more difficult topic. I would be interested if there has been validated work done on this to generate some level of global planetary energy balance. Best bet based on no work done whatsoever is that the further away from the surface the heat is it is more likely to be eventually released from the atmosphere? Any takers on this?

Also essentially blaming the failing models on lack of data smacks of over the top science. By the very definition of science we will never have enouph data but what needs to happen is a convergence of the data and the prediction from models. There is little evidence to suggest how far the models have come. Is it not about time for someone to do a history of climate model predictions with a view on their accuracy over the years and how or if they have improved. Surely there is enouph data available for this work?

Comment on Challenges to understanding the role of the ocean in climate science by Hank Zentgraf

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I applaud Clayson’s reasoning. I too would like to see much more observational research and tools supported in future budgets. In my view climate science is still in its infancy and not ready for policy deliberations. The first step would be to “scrub” all agency budgets and eliminate unnecessary work. I would start by closing down half of the government modeling activities and convert those resources to field research. Scientists who sit at a computer all day need to get out and travel to the unexplored areas and contribute real data rather than dreaming up new “assumptions”.

Comment on Challenges to understanding the role of the ocean in climate science by Edim

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Evaporation removes the heat from the surface (sea or land) and transfers it to the atmosphere.The energy comes from the surface, which absorbs solar energy.

Comment on Challenges to understanding the role of the ocean in climate science by David Wojick

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I think the energy comes from the surrounding liquid, in this case the ocean. It is the released into the atmosphere when condensation occurs.

Comment on Challenges to understanding the role of the ocean in climate science by Jim D

Comment on Challenges to understanding the role of the ocean in climate science by curryja

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When water vapor condenses to form clouds, latent heat is released in the atmosphere. When water evaporates from the ocean, the ocean surface cools.


Comment on More renewables? Watch out for the Duck Curve by Stephen Segrest

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The CSIRO models are not consistent with your statements. Why?

Comment on Challenges to understanding the role of the ocean in climate science by A fan of *MORE* discourse

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Thank you Judith Curry, for posting Carol Anne Clayson’s outstanding essay …

    NASA: Perpetual Ocean

… which causes us to reflect upon the intricate energy-balance heat-transport dynamics that is associated to Hansen-style climate-change.

Northwest Fisheries Science Center
Unusual North Pacific warmth
jostles marine food chain

The situation does not match recognized patterns in ocean conditions such as El Niño Southern Oscillation or Pacific Decadal Oscillation, which are known to affect marine food webs.

It’s a strange and mixed bag out there.

FOMD Observes  Traditional cold climate-dynamics flipping to new hottest-ever climate-dynamics?

Isn’t this EXACTLY how Hansen-style climate-change is supposed to look?

Conclusion  Nothing in Carol Anne Clayson’s outstanding essay — nothing in the either the theoretical science nor the observations that affirm it it — provides any rational grounds to be sanguine in regard to the global long-term consequences of anthropogenic climate-change.

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Comment on Challenges to understanding the role of the ocean in climate science by John Carter

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The bottom line with respect to oceans is this: They are warming at a rate that leading studies suggest is about 15x faster than any point in the last 10,000 years.

Take a grain of salt with the estimates, and point is they are warming, and the rate is geologically significant. Very. Not only faster than in 10,000 years, but much faster.

That is not a fluky coincidence, since there is a precise reason for it. Obviously.

Over time if they are warming, it means net energy is leaving the atmosphere, rather than the earth itself to warm the atmosphere. That means most of the heat energy that is being re captured, is not going into heating our atmosphere, but into heating our oceans.
The World Meteorological Organization even notes in their 2013 report (perhaps too precisely?) that 93% of the increase in captured energy has been going into heating our oceans.

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0BwdvoC9AeWjUeEV1cnZ6QURVaEE/edit

And a study published last month in Nature, essentially mirrors this point
http://www.nature.com/nclimate/journal/v4/n11/full/nclimate2389.html and provides further detail.

This has profound consequences for future climate. Those oceans raise the net energy level balance between atmosphere and ocean, while the atmospheric energy capture is going to remain higher because it is not due to some short term fluke, but a long term change in the long term concentration of atmospheric greenhouse gases.

This aside from the intensely complicating fact that those atmospheric levels are also continuing to rise (and in a way that is starting to compound itself ice starts to melt http://climatesolutionsandanalysis.wordpress.com/2014/10/30/major-methane-spikes-from-warming-sea-beds-are-compounding-an-underestimated-climate-change-challenge/) and doing so in a way that in a geologic sense is all but instantaneous.

So as we move forward in time, the atmosphere will continue to warm as it both continues to capture more heat, and the increase in ocean temperatures balances out (or won’t for a while as atmospheric concentrations continue to rise, air temperatures continue to rise, while most of the energy continues to heat the oceans.) this will only continue to amplify melt, and as the oceans warm, continue to amplify atmospheric change over time in conjunction with ongoing high (and increasing, even) absorption and re radiation of thermal radiation.

There is a tendency to get too precise with numbers that we really can’t pinpoint, and lose sight of the big picture concepts at play here that are very fundamental science, even if the issue is somewhat complex. And that, in many quarters, are being butchered through a self perpetuating tendency to interpret everything and anything in a way that somehow dismisses, lessens or refutes climate change, and simply dismiss, ignore, or misconstrue everything else. http://climatesolutionsandanalysis.wordpress.com/2014/11/11/why-climate-change-refutation-is-illogical-and-driven-by-something-else-not-science/

It’s really easy, particularly when following this extremely distinct and powerful pattern, to get caught up in any kind of particular that we don’t know about the ocean, to miss sight of the far more important big picture, which keeps getting wrangled around:

That is, the atmosphere is capturing more energy via long term greenhouse gases (and so far all studies show even through short term, as water vapor has increased whereas if it didn’t, that would be bad because it would only intensify regional drought changes in a warming world) than it has in MILLIONS of years. This is an ongoing addition of extra energy.

It doesn’t just disappear. It has raised the ambient global temperature a little, but mainly (aside from the atmospheric levels themselves, which by remaining high – let alone increasing much more – will only exacerbate this) gone into heating the earth. In many permafrost regions the actual ground has warmed more than the air above. In melting land ice sheets, which of course has not been occurring in total at both ends of the poles, and accelerating, in Greenland almost doubling it’s rate of melt in just five years. (Which is remarkable). And warming the ocean. At a geologically relevant, if not near extraordinary, rate.
(A classic example among many is the tendency to take all aspects of the ongoing adjustment and correction process of science, as repudiation of climate change itself. If something is more than expected, the clamor is “this wasn’t even expected, so climate scientists don’t know anything, ,wen can’t listen to them!” And whenever it’s less than expected, to go “see, it’s not a problem, it’s not even what they said. (Even if the “it” is a peripheral issue, as is almost always the case. And based the idea of climate change upon the mistaken idea that to know a change will occur, we need to be able to “write the exact script in advance as if seeing it after the fact.)

Comment on Challenges to understanding the role of the ocean in climate science by beththeserf

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Water planet, viewed from space,
like a snapshot from the gods,
a shimmering orb
netted in a cloud haze.

Comment on Challenges to understanding the role of the ocean in climate science by David Wojick

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We certainly need a better understanding of ocean dynamics, including in the context of possible climate change. Unfortunately this plea for funding (for that is what it is) makes it sound like the purpose of ocean science is to serve the questionable climate models. This is a good measure of the extent to which modeling has (wrongly) come to dominate climate science. But since the funding comes from the federal government, the proposal must reflect government policy, however wrong that policy may be. So this is a case of funding induced bias in climate research. There are many such.

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