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Comment on The legacy of Climategate: 5 years later by rogerknights

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Here’s a relevant recent comment from WUWT:

Allan MacRae December 8, 2014 at 10:02 am
……………….
Here is a list of those forced from their institutions due to global warming thugism

George Taylor – Oregon State Climatologist
Sallie Baliunas – Harvard University
Pat Michaels – University of Virginia
Murry Salby – Macquarie University, Australia
Caleb Rossiter – Institute for Policy Studies, USA
Nickolas Drapela, PhD – Oregon State University
Henrik Møller – Aalborg University, Denmark

David Legates also had quite a tale to tell of the harassment he received from the U. of Delaware.


Comment on Open thread by Dr Alex Hamilton

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Mike Flynn wrote “You have no facts to support any contention more complicated than the assumption that the Earth was created hot, and has since cooled.”

Yes I do. Planets could easily have cooled right down if the Sun stopped radiating. We see planetary surfaces cooling by a few degrees even just during their night. But the Sun warms such surfaces back up again the next day by the same amount that they cooled. You need to ask yourself why our little Moon is still hundreds of degrees hotter in its core than its hottest surface region. When you consider the amount by which the Moon cools in a fortnight on its dark side it’s blatantly obvious that no initial hot state or internal energy generation is maintaining the core temperature. It’s the Sun stupid!

Comment on Open thread by Dr Alex Hamilton

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Fan full of discourse:

It is impossible for an isothermal state in a vertical plane in a gravitational field to have no unbalanced energy potentials for the simple reason that molecules at the top have more gravitational potential energy and so more total energy than those at the bottom of a column of air, for example. Hence, by definition, such isothermal conditions are not the state of thermodynamic equilibrium. Yet the Second Law tells us such a state will evolve autonomously. And so, regardless of your calls to authority, “if your theory is found to be against the second law of thermodynamics I can give you no hope; there is nothing for it but to collapse in deepest humiliation.” —Sir Arthur Stanley Eddington, The Nature of the Physical World (1927)

Comment on Open thread by Pierre-Normand

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Dr Hamilton,

Consider a monatomic ideal gas at equilibrium. What happens at the level H where the atoms have as much gravitational potential energy m*g*H as they have kinetic energy, on average, at the bottom of the column. Do they hit an invisible wall and can’t rise anymore? And if some of them can rise above H, then the gas above level H has some “unbalanced potentials” on your view, right?

Comment on Super Pollutants Act of 2014 by ordvic

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@vaughan pratt

Thanks for those clarifications.

A few threads back someone posted how the arctic ice melt was triggering the dreaded methane time bomb. He had a chart showing what looked like methane realease was off the upper end of the chart. I looked around for confirmation and ran across several papers and articles that all said that there wasn’t good enough measurement there yet, most of it coming from Russia. Wiki points to a science magazine article that supposedly says that it would amplify global warming to unknown levels but fears of catastrophe were probably overblown.

Under the title ‘Clathrate breakdown’ it shows the methane related to mass extinctions much like the article that I linked above. That aside, it points to the paper by Shakova et al. It says the surface layer in two seas was supersaturated to 2500% of present level 1.85ppm, with that decimal point it doesn’t sound like much. It also says anomalously high concentrations (up to 154 nM or 4400% supersaturation) of bottom layer shelf water, whatever that means. Since the arctic ice surely melted during warm periods of the Holocene, I’m taking it that were not quite ready for a hundred thousand year timescale ‘big one’.

Comment on Super Pollutants Act of 2014 by jim2

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Danny – there is no reason to “think” our way out of this dispute. The dispute is a worthy one. Cleaning up obvious and serious pollutants is one thing, but overdoing it brings on the law of diminishing returns. You are blindly and sheep-like advocating this law when you don’t even have a clue what it costs. You are just parroting the Dimowit line, here. Have you no shame at all?

Oh, that’s right, you love to spend money as long as it isn’t yours.

Comment on Gravito-thermal discussion thread by captdallas2 0.8 +/- 0.2

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This is nice, even providing a range based on attractive forces. I think the Dufour Effect could use some Wikipedia attention.

Comment on Super Pollutants Act of 2014 by John Smith (it's my real name)

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Max
strange, I can’t see Justin’s comment as racist
unless you consider national borders as implicitly “racist”
this type of thought pattern is why I had to flee the liberal holiday camp


Comment on Super Pollutants Act of 2014 by John Smith (it's my real name)

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Old Bob
me thought that paraphrase of Barry Goldwater was sufficient indicator
perhaps me much older, less sweet for sure
:)

Comment on Super Pollutants Act of 2014 by kim

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You missed the other Max, John, but the contrast is heart-breaking.
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Comment on Super Pollutants Act of 2014 by kim

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Ya, the little kids pick daisy petals there in Never Is-Never Is Land.
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Comment on Gravito-thermal discussion thread by captdallas2 0.8 +/- 0.2

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Rob found a paper that considers some of the details that have been mentioned, enthalpy, mean free path etc.

http://cds.cern.ch/record/631177/files/0307532.pdf

It references the Dufour Effect which is pretty obscure, so here is a link

http://www.pnas.org/content/77/4/1728.full.pdf

A Readers Digest Condensed version would be like if there is a density gradient there is a diffusion gradient. Conduction in gases is analogous to diffusion, gravity limits the outward diffusion, there will be a small temperature gradient.

The size of the gradient would depend on a number of conditions, but the biggie would be enthalpy. So if you have a perfectly uniform ideal gas in large enough concentration, the effect would be astonishingly small. Because of that, an ideal isothermal atmosphere is often used as a limit with an ideal adiabatic atmosphere used as an opposing limit to provide a range of expectations for a *real* atmosphere. So in reality you should never see either a perfectly isothermal or a perfectly dry adiabatic atmosphere, they are physical concepts not physical realities.

Is that about it or must we invoke some more obscure terminology?

Comment on Gravito-thermal discussion thread by kim

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I feel like a debate survivor but I’m not sure. I vomited and passed out early in the proceedings.
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Comment on Super Pollutants Act of 2014 by Stephen Segrest

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Dr. Curry — When you post topics such as this (SLCP), as an educational blog it would be very helpful to invite “professional experts” to post follow-up stories (both pro and con).

As to all of Mr. Eschenbach’s (and Others) claims, there are certainly different medical/health science and legal views.

For example, I find it hard to believe that if you asked someone from the NRDC to respond to all of Mr. Eschenbach’s claims — that they would say NO. They already have written about this.

http://switchboard.nrdc.org/blogs/jwalke/the_office_of_house_majority.html

In Mr. Eschenbach’s World, if Industry sues the EPA then “thank goodness we live in a Nation that values the rule of law”. But if Enviro Non-Profits sue, then its a “Liberal” conspiracy theory.

Comment on Super Pollutants Act of 2014 by Danny Thomas

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Jim2,

So how can we “act” w/o thinking first?

I agree that this is a worthy cause to discuss. Approx. 1/2 of the folks will be “right” and 1/2 will be “wrong” when it’s settled, and that will likely be long after I’m gone.

I’m seeking what is good about the proposed (therefore subject to modification and improvement) legislation not just tossing it out in entirety because it goes “against” some line of thinking.

The “solutions” to this dilemma will lie in politics short of some discovery of a “control knob” and who knows if that will occur in our lives, or if at all. So my thinking is based on “using what we’ve got” and building on it. I see no less shame in my thinking that than I do in the AGW sides “take no prisoners” approach or the skeptical side of effectively the same. My Papa used to tell me if you find yourself in a hole, stop digging. We’re still digging, so please forgive if I’m trying to figure out a way for us to stop. It does not have to be this bill, but it must start somewhere. For some it appears continuation of the game is priority, for some their journey has ended. Some of us can only do the best we can by voting in the most sound way we know how.

So, Jim2, other than just tossing away all government of any kind, please share the seeds of your solutions. I for one know I don’t have the answers but I am willing to toss out thoughts towards progress. Some will be blown back at me strongly, and that’s a learning experience. Some may have a nugget of value. Yours?

The more perspectives offered the better, and I appreciate yours.


Comment on Super Pollutants Act of 2014 by Jacob

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There already is the EPA for cleaning up the air and water, with plenty of legislation and regulation, and authority.
Why do we need more legislation and additional bureaucratic agencies? What will they do that the EPA can’t do (or failed to do) ?
The existence of “low hanging fruit” or “no-regrets action” might be a myth, or an empty slogan. This whole “super-pollutants” thing looks to me like empty and silly sloganeering.
Every regulation, the “old”, “normal” EPA regulations, as well as this new proposed law – need a detailed cost-benefit analysis, much beyond the empty sloganeering that has been presented so far.

Comment on Super Pollutants Act of 2014 by jim2

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Danny, there is so much wrong with what you say.

You say we are digging a hole. What does that even mean? Global warming isn’t happening at the moment and there is no proof that even if it is and does happen, that there will be a catastrophe. Your hole is mostly imaginary. You are starting with a false premise.

Making law for no reason is just stupid. Sorry for the blunt language, but it IS STUPID!!!

Comment on Super Pollutants Act of 2014 by Stephen Segrest

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As anyone knows that has followed my posts — I’m not a fan of CAGW messaging to implement many liberal policies (e.g., the clearly Liberal Dr. Oppenheimer of Princeton, carbon tax, cap & trade, etc.).

But, I think its really important to be consistent.

When the CAGW types are criticized here at CE, how come the catastrophic messaging of Industry in the costs of environmental regulation are taken as FACT?

Time and time again on so many environmental Regs, history has shown that Industry’s catastrophic messaging just wasn’t correct.

But an overwhelming body of historical record on Industry estimated versus actual costs just never means much to folks like Mr. Eschenbach.

Comment on Gravito-thermal discussion thread by Joe Born

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” Conduction in gases is analogous to diffusion, gravity limits the outward diffusion, there will be a small temperature gradient.”

Interesting. When Dr. Brown said “Heat flow satisfies the moral equivalent of “Ohm’s Law” in this case — a thermal gradient in the rod requires a heat “current” driven by a temperature difference.” (http://wattsupwiththat.com/2014/02/06/satellites-show-no-global-warming-for-17-years-5-months/#comment-1563836), I responded (http://wattsupwiththat.com/2014/02/06/satellites-show-no-global-warming-for-17-years-5-months/#comment-1567788) in a similar vein by making an (admittedly rough) analogy to a diode junction, with gravity causing something like electric-field-caused drift, and thermal conduction being something like charge-carrier diffusion.

Unfortunately, Dr. Brown disputed my description of the way a diode works, so my attempt went nowhere. We autodidacts don’t fare well in these discussions.

Comment on Gravito-thermal discussion thread by captdallas2 0.8 +/- 0.2

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Joe, how things work in a model depends on how the model is set up. Since the gravitational effects in a ideal gas are small, you can ignore it in most cases and have “ideal” conduction/diffusion. So Brown was probably not wrong for his model. When you allow a bit more complexity, even with ideal gases, you get a few more interesting effects to consider.

So the answer really depends on how much detail is added to the thought experiment or how *real* you want your model to be. So the argument is more about what is the “ideal” model not if there is a gravito-thermal effect.

I believe that was mentioned in the Jaynes papers I linked earlier.

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