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Comment on All megawatts are not equal by Mark Miller

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Rud,

Barnhart et al gave a presentation, to the CPUC, on ways to look at energy storage.

“ Journal Article: Energetic implications of curtailing versus storing solar- and wind-generated electricity.”

http://www.cpuc.ca.gov/NR/rdonlyres/1521FE3B-2FB5-4A6A-A93B-45125D6EF895/0/Barnhart20140116CPUCPHSWorkshop.pdf

Does your analysis of energy storage indicate when curtailment of excess wind and PV output is the way to go vs trying to store the energy?

CASIO also addressed energy storage recently:

“Energy storage is one of several options available to provide operational flexibility and mitigate renewable curtailment.
•Increase energy storage, demand response, and energy efficiency
•Modify curtailment provisions in power purchase agreements to reconcile with RPS priorities
•Achieve time-of-use rates or other mechanism to align with regional and seasonal system conditions
•Deepen regional coordination with other balancing authorities
•Electrify transportation including managed charging capabilities and incentives
•Reduce fleet minimum load burden by increasing fleet flexibility ”

http://www.energy.ca.gov/research/notices/2014-12-01_workshop/presentations/Heather_Sanders_California_Independant_System_Operator.pdf


Comment on All megawatts are not equal by Barnes

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As Raganar points out, you also need to consider the external benefits, not just the costs. The SCC document published by the feds focuses almost, if not entirely , on external costs, and much of what is claimed as costs is suspect at best. The SCC document is little more than a political tool to be used by the green blob to make fossil fuel energy appear to be more expensive, while completely ignoring external benefits.

Comment on Gravito-thermal discussion thread by Jim D

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Pierre-Normand, mixing and diffusion are not at all reversible processes. They conserve quantities but not entropy. You can’t unmix or undiffuse anything unless you gain something like potential energy (e.g. settling out denser fluids). An isentropic gas will not settle out into an isothermal one because that has a lower entropy. An isothermal gas in gravity will eventually diffuse, or can be mixed, into an isentropic state. Without gravity it is fine, but with gravity you have that extra energy gradient that is available to be redistributed to equalize the entropy. An energy gradient leads to an energy flux by even the smallest diffusion, which in the case of an isothermal state is a downward flux.

Comment on All megawatts are not equal by Jacob

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Solar might make sense, for a small portion of needs, in some places. So, use it where it makes sense, why not? I sure would oppose any ban on solar installations…

But, the policies already established in many parts of the world, of paying huge subsidies, and forcing solar by mandates, whether it makes sense or not – this is outright crazy.

The basic reasoning of all “green” advocates is emotional. They say: “solar energy is free, clean, renewable, wonderful!”. So the Government has to force it’s installation, at all quantities available and at all costs. This is crazy.

Comment on All megawatts are not equal by PA

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http://publications.jrc.ec.europa.eu/repository/bitstream/111111111/15308/1/reqno_jrc60700_ldna24583enc.pdf%5B1%5D.pdf

http://www.templar.co.uk/downloads/0203_Pouret_Nuttall.pdf

Most nuclear power plants can load follow in the 60%-100% power range.
Some plants can do more, some of the graphite and older technologies can do less.

The problem is that you aren’t saving anything. The PWR nuclear power plant running at 50% costs just as much per hour (if not more) than the PWR running at 100%. The fixed cost (80% of plant operation) still has to be paid off, the O&M (mostly the staff) is as bad or worse, and the fuel cost (about 5% of plant operating cost) doesn’t change much.

So producing power at 50% costs twice as much per kilowatt as power produced at 100%.

http://www.energy-tech.com/article.cfm?id=32781

There is additional down time that in the European experience was about 2%, Thermal cycling a large generating facility stresses everything including the turbines and generators. The huge size of these components means speed change generates huge rotational torques not encountered in steady state operation.

There is additional O&M since you have to do activities like tinker with the chemistry. Since the staff is on-site anyway this cost doesn’t seem to be tracked.

Comment on All megawatts are not equal by Thomas Stacy

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Having only skimmed the post and reading none of the previous replies, I recognize this comment may be redundant.

The simplest metric by which we CAN compare wind with dispatchable generation is its guaranteed continuous minimum contribution to serving load across peak demand hours of the year, at some high statistical confidence level. There are several terms out there which approach this definition: capacity value, capacity credit, effective load carrying capability, loss of load expectation, summer capacity and winter capacity, to name a few.

One of the entities which works for FERC as a market monitor, Potomac Economics headed by David Patton, notes in their 2012 Annual Report on MISO that:

“The current capacity credit for wind is likely more than three times higher than a reasonably conservative capacity credit. Such a credit should be
based on the minimum output level one could expect under peak summer conditions.”

https://www.potomaceconomics.com/uploads/reports/2012_SOM_Report_final_6-10-13.pdf (report page vi) and:

” ..[T]his report shows the effects of assuming the lowest quartile
of output during peak hours on the unit-by-unit basis. This methodology would produce an average capacity credit for the wind resources of 2.7 percent for PY 2013–14.” (Same resource, report page 16).

Using the average of the lowest quartile as a measure of capacity value means that wind output would not fall below a 2.7% of its nameplate capacity more than about 12.5% of the time, or that its capacity value would by 2.7% at an 87.5% confidence level. Even this severe trimming of wind’s capacity related “avoided cost of capital” on the system is not conservative enough to be applied to the entire generation fleet. If all generators had their capacity value (credit) rated at an 87.5% confidence level, reserve margins would be severely understated, as Potomac points out in other sections of the referenced report.

To get to the punch line, yes, wind is perhaps a fuel saver but has near zero sway to avoid constructing and maintaining dispatchable plants. Essentially wind’s value cannot exceed the value of the fuel it saves: About $40/MWh for CC Gas, $25/MWh for coal, and less than $10/MWh for nuclear. One need only compare fixed to variable cost ratios of dispatchable plants, then, to calculate wind’s avoided cost including fixed costs, multiplying the dispatchable technolgies’ fixed costs by wind capacity value (2.7%?) divided by the dispatchable source’s capacity value.

We developed a simplified regional market hourly economic/technical re-dispatch model this year. This is a fascinating tool to help interested parties at all levels of technical competency recognize the interdependent impacts of adding intermittent resources into systems with varying amounts of fixed output resources (i.e. nuclear) already participating in their regional markets. Contact me for more information about the release date and venue for this model.

Comment on Spinning the ‘warmest year’ by kim

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Also with biomic sinks and feedbacks, unthought of let alone monitored.

GCMs got ‘em? Yeah, sure.
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Comment on Gravito-thermal discussion thread by Vaughan Pratt

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@Jim D: You can’t unmix or undiffuse anything unless you gain something like potential energy (e.g. settling out denser fluids).

Yes, exactly (though you presumably meant “lose” rather than “gain” since gravity acts to convert PE to KE). But surely that (locally) entropy-decreasing “settling out” process is precisely what’s going on here. The faster molecules in a parcel contribute the most to diffusion. The pressure at the top of the parcel being less than at the bottom, the faster molecules will prefer to exit the parcel through the top. Heat therefore migrates up. But the faster molecules also gain PE as they do so, thereby cooling. The two effects cancel, exactly if Maxwell and Boltzmann are to be believed, with the upshot being an isothermal distribution.


Comment on Spinning the ‘warmest year’ by kim

Comment on Spinning the ‘warmest year’ by brent

Comment on All megawatts are not equal by Stephen Segrest

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Planning Engineer — Thanks for another solid post!

In these threads, I continue to see folks framing generation options in terms of black/white either/or. If you could clarify some things, it would be appreciated:

(1) In a “typical” bell shaped load distribution curve, what is the approximate percentage break-downs in total generation requirements? i.e. — base load is about X%, intermediate is Y%, and peaking is Z% (total is 100%).

(2) In a black/white either/or World — If on an existing Utility grid where significant incremental growth was occurring primarily in peak demand, would a U.S. Utility generally: (A) Build a new nuclear power plant for this new incremental demand that would have a capacity factor of say 30%, (B) Install solar resources, (C) Or in prior base load planning decisions, overbuild a nuclear unit and just cycle up during 30% of the System’s generation requirements (as they reportedly do in France)?

(Note: Of course, lets assume that somehow nuclear cost per kW becomes reasonable — not China’s, but reasonable/hopeful Western country estimates).

(3) Here in the U.S., could you discuss why “cycling down” large coal and nuclear base load power plants is so difficult. Please address what typically happens in efficiency (percentage wise) when a large coal unit is “cycled down”, and what happens to long term O&M costs when cycling up and down routinely happens.

(4) Could you discuss why Renewables could be a better Fit in places say like New England (with a fleet of new shinny natural gas combined cycle units) versus say a place like Mississippi (with a lot of older coal units).

(5) Could you talk to us about fuel risks. Every U.S. Electric Utility CEO that’s advancing the need for base load nuclear talks about the critical need for generation fleet diversification given (A) the hand writing on the wall as to U.S. coal (e.g., mercury, smog); (B) the fear of becoming overly dependent on natural gas.

If having a diversified portfolio for fuel risk is important for base load requirements — is this diversified portfolio argument valid or invalid for peaking requirements (e.g., solar)?

Comment on All megawatts are not equal by rsminus3

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Great article. When I was working at a nuc plant, we worried about a shutdown when we were near the end of core life due to the poison buildup. Once we started our refueling 12 days early because we tripped and would have had to wait 7 days before we could come critical again.

Comment on All megawatts are not equal by kim

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The fuel is a free lunch, and they ain’t no such thing, Tom. Things I learned at my Mama’s knee and other low joints.
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Comment on Gravito-thermal discussion thread by captdallas2 0.8 +/- 0.2

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Vaughan Pratt,
“Heat therefore migrates up. But the faster molecules also gain PE as they do so, thereby cooling. The two effects cancel, exactly if Maxwell and Boltzmann are to be believed, with the upshot being an isothermal distribution, ”

Right, and for the two effects to exactly cancel you would probably need a physical containment system. Well, in addition to the perfectly elastic balls that prefer not to spin very often and have infinitely small mass so the gravitational attraction between the perfectly elastic balls is negligible.

Other than we are home free :)

My take on this is if someone says there appears to be a gravito-thermal effect, you let them run with their idea then figure out which “effect” requires the most perfection. To me “equilibrium” is like the Steven Wright joke, “You know how it feels when you’re leaning back on a chair, and you lean too far back, and you almost fall over backwards, but then you catch yourself at the last second? I feel like that all the time…”

Comment on Spinning the ‘warmest year’ by kim

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In this climate, even a minute of BBC storm is heavy weather.
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Comment on All megawatts are not equal by cwon14

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Thanks PE for serious reality based information, it isn’t going to change one Greenshirt Utopian Renewable Energy meme, carbon hating or in short the AGW political cult itself but I appreciate the posts. Facts are helpful but they don’t overcome the emotions of even well educated academics cheering a mob on. The Green belief system is proof positive of that.

For example;

Today NPR is celebrating the birthday
of Rachel Carson of “Silent Spring” fame and the global fraud involved to ban DDT. It’s estimated to have cost 60 million lives in largely poor nations. It’s overtones to the climate change agenda are rather obvious as is the actual empirical science discounted in post normal political science state. It’s been about 52 years of reasoned debunking of Silent Spring by rational “facts” to no avail to the undercurrent value system that is using another politically motivated scale to decide what is science truth. So for all the useful facts of your work PE the key to science improvement is a consensus of cultural honesty as to why the Green Culture (some call it a “Green blob” or mob) are largely immune to empirical observations you may list. Carbon hating (or love of irrationally priced “renewables”), the political enertia around it or Silent Spring, is devoid of factual derailment alone.

Comment on Spinning the ‘warmest year’ by kim

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The broadcaster is having a tempest fit. Or temper fit, the poor miserable thing.
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Comment on All megawatts are not equal by kim

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She coulda stopped at the edge of the sea.
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Comment on All megawatts are not equal by kim

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Ya wanna step lively when the tide goes way, way, way out.
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Comment on All megawatts are not equal by kim

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