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Comment on Environmentalism versus science by Mike Flynn

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Jim D,

You wrote –

“MF, gases like O2 and N2 emit nothing in the IR. That is why they are not classified as IR active. The special status of CO2, H2O, CH4, etc. is precisely because they absorb and emit in the IR. You only see these gases’ emission/absorption frequencies with IR spectrography. There’s whole field of physics in this area but you must have missed the class when they taught that.”

So tell us Jim D, what wavelengths do O2 and N2 emit at 20 C? What about CO2? What about Pb or Fe or H2O? It’s not my fault that you misunderstand and misuse physics. It makes no difference. The Earth has cooled for four and a half billion years or so. Are you a denier? Really don’t believe it happened?

Good luck!

Cheers.


Comment on A buoy-only sea surface temperature record by Don Monfort

Comment on Environmentalism versus science by John Carpenter

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Jim D, don’t bother trying to teach Flynn. Waste of time. He’s already smarter than all of us combined.

Comment on Environmentalism versus science by PA

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John Carpenter | November 24, 2015 at 10:09 pm |
“I believe I have heard of those words before,” – Mike Flynn

Like I said, you never heard of infrared spectroscopy before.

http://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/163876/thermal-radiation-of-a-nitrogen-sphere

Blackbody radiation, ideal gas law, this isn’t rocket science.

The gas isn’t ionized, the spectral line discussions are irrelevant. An energy pumped excited gas has nothing to do with relaxed gas situation.

If the gas response was qualitatively or quantitatively different you could put a volume of N2 next to a volume of CO2 and heat it up. That obviously doesn’t happen.

http://hockeyschtick.blogspot.co.uk/2014/05/new-paper-questions-basic-physics.html

However it turns out that CO2 is not an ideal blackbody or even a pretty good blackbody and absorption and emissivity decrease with temperature. As CO2 warms it tends to become “dead weight” (less effective) in the atmosphere. As to the “gas next to each other” example – if absorption and emission decrease the result is basically a wash. It isn’t going to warm as fast or cool as fast.

Further, a tiny increase in H2O dwarfs the CO2 response.

At least that is my take on it. Not sure how significant the decrease in emissivity is and don’t have time to get up to speed on it.

I’ll let you guys get back to the discussion.

Comment on A buoy-only sea surface temperature record by Don Monfort

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The story plays up the stinkly “rushed” red herring and fails to mention the substantive allegations of the NOAA scientist whistleblowers: politicization of the science and failure of Karl and his gang to follow established NOAA scientific procedures and methods.

And the dispute is framed as an attack on the scientific community by Lamar Smith “prominent climate denier”. But not to worry good folks “the scientific community doesn’t show any signs of backing down.” They think it’s the alleged climate science community that gets to decide how and when the Congress can exercise it’s oversight powers, rather than the U.S. Constitution and the Supreme Court.

Comment on A buoy-only sea surface temperature record by Don Monfort

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POTUS Trump will waterboard these clowns. We will get the real story then.

Comment on A buoy-only sea surface temperature record by climateadj

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… and scratch that last bit… nonsense on my part… it’s removing a spurious negative trend.

Comment on Environmentalism versus science by Mike Flynn

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PA,

You wrote –

“Blackbody radiation, ideal gas law, this isn’t rocket science.”

According to some Warmists, it isn’t science at all, by all appearances.

Oh well, Warmist science is settled. The pause either exists or doesn’t exist, CO2 is either good or bad, the atmosphere is chaotic or not, CO2 causes ice to increase or decrease, it causes warming, cooling, floods, droughts, earthquakes and volcanoes.

It might even cause and cure haemorrhoids and bad breath for all I know.

More CO2 I say. Wondrous stuff – feeds the staff of life – food plants!

Cheers.


Comment on Environmentalism versus science by gymnosperm

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Can’t attack it directly? How about, it ain’t warming? Now, when you point this out and get all manner of backdoor data revision, you begin to sense ideology.

Comment on Environmentalism versus science by knutesea

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I had lunch today with a respected old friend. He’s wedded to CAGW. We never have really gotten into it much on the issue. Life and its oddities made sure other things came first.

I brought up the warmer climates of the past 5000 years. Middle Ages, Roman, Minoan … showed him a picture of the cherry picked hockey stick except I showed it in the perspective of the 5000 year time scale.

First he challenged the ice core data.
Then he challenged the origin of the graph.
Then he clung to CO2 increases.
Then he chastized me for not being a climatologist.
Then he flailed about the polar bears and the lost species and the impact to human health.

I was kind of speechless. Hell, I cant even remember what I ate for lunch.

I still respect him, but I am worried about this svengali grip on his critical thinking skills.

Are they putting something in the water /sarc.

Comment on A buoy-only sea surface temperature record by PA

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The rate of evaporation starts going exponential at 295K. At 303K it is pretty hard to heat the ocean much, it just boils away.

Comment on A buoy-only sea surface temperature record by douglasproctor

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Subsequent to the El Nino hot year is an 18-month of big cold, showing that the El Nino discharges more than the current year’s energy. So the skeptics will cheer when the bottom drops out, the warmists will say it is just a temporary post-El Nino adjustment, and we’ll have to wait another 18 months to see which way the trend is going.

We’re at the point where the “coolers”, of which I am one, are being tested. If the 2018 temps aren’t significantly down from 2015, then the imminent cooling, pre-Dalton isn’t likely to happen. If they aren’t significantly above the 2015 temps, then the IPCC rates are REALLY too high. And it will matter, because any agreement done iin Paris will take until 2018 to get any traction.

Here’s something weird to consider. The committemtn for100 billion/year, with the US at an initial 3B. Sounds like a lot, right? Alberta, Canada, just passed a carbon tax that is said to be raising 2Billlion/year. We are minnows in tiny fishbowl, and are able to come up with 2B with a snap of the fingers. The 3B is nothing. The 100billion for all the developed world is near nothing. The US is/was printing 85B/MONTH.

The pushback on the money is made to sound like the money is a big deal. It isn’t. Nobody wants to do it. Period. Give it to the developing world to be squandered on something that doesn’t matter? Don’t think so.

The shouting is covering something else. It is very useful politically and makes some ideological and strategic sense (replacing fossil fuels for some energy source of greater density, like nuclear). But the INDCs don’t do the trick, the “threatened” portions of the world are not alarmed enough to do anything by themselves, and the developed world is not concerned enough to print more paper to cover their alleged costs (the US Fed can’t print 88B one month instead of 85, or redirect 3 of the 85 new paper for one month?).

Either we are in a another time of the “madness of crowds”, or something else is going on under the smokescreen.

Comment on Environmentalism versus science by gymnosperm

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The last gasps of the ideologues are the data revisions. Yet there are some indications that some of the revisions to the surface data are justifiable. It is possible to be right for the wrong reason. So if you just give the idealogues their surface data revisions, what would it mean? How is it possible that the louvered boxes at airports and cities (even when rural stations can be construed to agree) and the iron ships (even when substantiated by a particular buoy dataset) can be correct and the satellites which report rather less warming for the much taller section of TLT and no warming for TMT also be correct? Warm air rises.

Dark energy flux can’t be ruled out, but it seems possible that there is a “warm skin” to the surface atmosphere. This skin effect might be exacerbated somewhat by human water and CO2 from combustion, and yet be as trivial to the overall mass of the atmosphere as the “cool skin” is to the mass of the ocean. Perhaps we are just warming our noses.

Comment on Environmentalism versus science by michael hart (@michael97087462)

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Garth Paltridge seems to have got it about right.

I think part of the problem has been the drive to ‘diversify’ science teaching.
Science used to be seen as boring and hard, so many tried to make it easier and more interesting. That attracted the ‘I like furry animals and want to save the planet” brigade. And so here we are, with the new science-of-everything which brooks no dissent or advancement.

Comment on A buoy-only sea surface temperature record by PA

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the current El Nino will quickly make the “hiatus” or “pause” discussion rather moot.

Huh???

Fine, when La Nina comes through the “non-warmers” will go on and on about how warmers lied through their teeth about the pause being over.

Which they did.

I’m more interested in the 2020 rate of CO2 increase and the 2020 temperature and will let others amuse themselves making claims and counter claims about short term temperature changes.


Comment on Week in review – science edition by Joel Williams

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The phenomenon has been observed with watches in earth orbit. While the rapier becoming a disk might make for limericks, if all parts moved at the same speed, then the rapier would remain the same. In a similar way, if you could move at the speed of light away from the earth with your watch on and came back to earth in an earth year, the earth and all of your friends would be a year older, but you and your watch would have everything still in the same location as when you left. You would have traveled into the future relative to them as all of the parts of your body and your watch would still be as they were when you left: all constant “relative” to one another, but not relative to earth and friends.

Comment on A buoy-only sea surface temperature record by Vaughan Pratt

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@eem: Vaughan, a climate sensitivity of 1.73C per doubling of CO2 looks believable, about 50% more than what would be expected with CO2 without any feedback.

Quite right, Erik. Bear in mind however that what we’re currently experiencing is neither equilibrium climate sensitivity (ECS) nor transient climate response (TCR) but the empirical or observed climate sensitivity (OCS, I suppose).

ECS is the eventual temperature rise following a doubling of CO2, which may take centuries to reach that temperature, necessarily long after the doubled CO2 has stopped changing. As the temperature approaches its equilibrium value its slope decreases until in the limit it’s flat, the equilibrium condition.

TCR is the rise in 20-year climate during 70 years of a CO2 CAGR of 1%. It is measured at the start and end of the 70 years, and the rise is the difference. A CAGR of 1% over 70 years corresponds to a doubling in CO2 over that period. Unlike ECS, there is no requirement that either CO2 or temperature cease increasing at any point. Currently TCR is only meaningful for models, but RCP8.5 (“business as usual’) CO2 for 2010-2080 should be quite similar on average since it will hit the 1% CAGR mark shortly before mid-century and then rise above it.

Empirical climate sensitivity is like TCR but with CO2 doing its own thing instead of obeying some rule like a fixed CAGR. In the 1960s CO2 CAGR was around a quarter of a percent, by 1980 it had climbed to 0.36%, by 2000 0.5%, and today it’s around 0.65%.

The advantage of plotting climate against forcing instead of time is that it tends to factor out any changes in CAGR because CAGR is defined in terms of time while forcing is not. This is what makes it possible to observe a straight line after removing the known oscillations and TSI. The longer the observation, the more confident one can be about whether the trend line has any real meaning.

I say “tends to” because in practice if forcing were to slow down it would give the ocean more time to absorb heat and rise in temperature, making the situation slightly more like the equilibrium case. While this might sound hard to model, it turns out to be much simpler than you’d expect if you judged it by the enormous complexity of global ocean-land circulation models (GCMs) like the CMIP5 suite.

So far forcing has not slowed down, and so we have had no opportunity to date to observe what would happen if it did. We can only theorize, but that’s not necessarily a tall order, the complexity of the CMIP5 models notwithstanding.

An empirical climate sensitivity of 1.7 or 1.8 °C is entirely consistent with an equilibrium climate sensitivity of 3 °C. For the purposes of 21st century forecasts, ECS is entirely irrelevant. Moreover if CO2 stops following RCP8.5 then even observed climate sensitivity will become less relevant. Theory (good theory anyway) then becomes the more reliable basis for projection.

If CO2 continues to follow RCP8.5 it will reach 936 ppm in 2100. If in doing so climate continues along that straight line with slope 1.73 °C per doubling of CO2, climate in 2100 will be 1.73*log2(936/400) = 2 degrees hotter than today (so 3 degrees hotter than in 1910).

Naively using the 3 °C/doubling figure for equilibrium climate sensitivity might make you think that the rise would be 3*log2(936/400 = 3.7 °C hotter than today in 2100. However that’s not what equilibrium climate sensitivity means. It means, very roughly, that if CO2 stops rising after 2100 then a few centuries later (depending on how long the climate takes to reach equilibrium) the climate will have risen 3.7 °C over today.

Actually even that is not quite right. More precisely the definition of ECS assumes that the starting temperature is measured while in equilibrium, whereas today we’re well out of equilibrium.

Comment on A buoy-only sea surface temperature record by Vaughan Pratt

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@cd: I still like my three basins controlling the resonance. The changes in the panama flow and Antarctic circumpolar currents would vary the transfer and the frequencies.

While I can’t see it, cd, isn’t that what belief is all about? The ability to see only your own belief and not those of others.

If I could see two hypotheses equally clearly I’d be of two minds on the question and would be casting around for a crucial experiment that could improve the odds of one of them.

A year ago I was of several minds on the matter. What eventually became the knock-down argument for me is the correlation between the AMO and not the LOD itself, which is not that great, but rather its expected thermal impact if the mechanism is centrifugally driven lava, for which the correlation is great.

Comment on Environmentalism versus science by Jantonone Werneken

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I have never for a moment considered the environment as a thing of value for its own sake and i never will. Yet i oppose experimenting with our own planet with no restraints at all.

What ought to be done depends not so much on the facts of what is or will be, but on the facts of what actually could be done to materially change any of that, the consequences and the costs, and the willingness, or lack thereof, of people to agree to such things.

Cheap available abundant fossil fuel energy sustains the lives of 90% of living humans and the comforts of 100% of humans as have comforts, plus civilization and peace.

Unless the great grain belts were at risk, there is nothing any conceivable warming of the planet could do that would be as bad as abandoning fossil fuels, with no combination of new or more efficient technology or new and less polluting energy sources in sight to replace them.

Comment on Environmentalism versus science by Peter M Davies

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Did you mean John Reid? I agree that the practice of climate science has been contaminated by environmental ideology and that their messaging has been tainted by demagoguery.

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