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Comment on A new perspective on drought in the American southeast by Chief Hydrologist

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Cyclones, hurricanes, typhoons – a rose by any other name – form over open oceans in specific parts of the world when ocean water to 50m exceeds 26.5 degrees C. But as most warming was entirely natural the issues with bigger and better storms are almost entirely natural too.

The authors considered drought and concluded that 20th century conditions were wetter than is historically true for the region. This seems pretty obvious from diverse strands of hydrological evidence.

There are a number of ocean and atmospheric indices with established correlations with regional rainfall, these are followed very closely and provide the by far the best indications for seasonal to decadal forecasts. It is foolish to ignore these and concentrate instead on some chimerical conception of global warming.


Comment on Analyzing people who talk about AGW denialism by Edim

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tempterrain, NO! There’s probably a way, but that’s not the point. The point is that climate changes. Is that so difficult to understand? Climate changes, just like it always has.

Comment on Analyzing people who talk about AGW denialism by hro001

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Thanks for this, Scott :-)

It’s good to know that someone thought my suggestions warrant consideration! Reading the lines of the E-mail Paul Bains asked Anthony to post at WUWT (and reading between ‘em!), I’m inclined to think that he may have missed my comment. Because if he’d actually read what I wrote, he certainly didn’t seem to think any of my suggestions warranted any consideration at all!

Bains seems to think that the only important part of their paper was “the message” or “point”.

I wonder if it’s occurred to him that their “message” (or point) might have been lost in the … uh … medium they chose to select.

Then again, perhaps Bains is striving to be the Myles Allen of (post-normal) psychology!

Comment on Analyzing people who talk about AGW denialism by Latimer Alder

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@A fan

I did indeed read R Gates’s piece about modelling. And a very respectful document it is. But I wonder if you really grasped what it respectfully says.

The first part is a lengthy explanation of all the difficult things that happen and aren’t taken into account in the models…and uses this long list of woes to explain why we are all so super horrible nasty to expect that models will ever be able to provide accurate testable predictions.

And in the second part – like the hapless shop assistant in Monty Python’s Dead Parrot sketch – he gallantly attempts to distract our attention with some stuff about all the other things that they might be good for.

But all his distractions do not remove the Elephant in the Bathroom, or resurrect the Norwegian Blue. It is still dead, and the models still fail to do what we need them to do. They do not provide reliable predictions of future climate. We have spent billions of dollars and many man-years to get something that does not work.

They are predictive models that cannot predict. And R Gates tells us – in very respectful terms – some of the reasons why.

Comment on Analyzing people who talk about AGW denialism by bob droege

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Latimer,
They wouldn’t do that because they know better.

Comment on Analyzing people who talk about AGW denialism by Latimer Alder

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@bob droege

Sure. No problems with any of that stuff. I could probably have written it when I was about 13. Learning about measuring stuff is quite important in physics and chemistry. I did quite a lot of both. Measured a lot of different variables with a lot of different instruments and machines. Calibrated them too. So I am no stranger to that side of the house.

But you are talking about the difficulties of individual measurements. My question was about datasets. Datasets are collections of measurements, not the measurements themsleves.

Why do we have more than one dataset of measurements? Why do they differ? What do you mean by HADCRUT3 has ‘gaps’? Why don’t you merge all the individual datasets into one universally agreed ‘master dataset’? Why is some item of data included in one dataset but not another? What possible rationale is there?

(And if I hear that you can’t tell me because of confidentiality agreements or intellectual property or because McSteve is a very bad man or any of the usual juvenile academic drivel I swear I will scream the house down)

Seems to me that climatology already has enough problems without stumbling over the elementary one of not even having a single agreed set of basic measurements. A ‘common language’ of data.

But then this is climatology. Expecting any degree of rational organisation or systematic approach to the ‘greatest problem facing humanity’ seems well beyond the grasp of their ‘great intellects’.

PS – great insight into my garden btw. Do you live locally? But they are goldfish, not Koi.

Comment on Analyzing people who talk about AGW denialism by Latimer Alder

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When I feel strong enough I too will drop by over there. Sadly I am barred from commenting because of some imaginary transgression of one of ML’s arbitrary rules. His favourite phrase is ‘my blog, my rules, goodbye’. And then he wonders why it is ever so quiet ……..

The story of mateyboy getting into a huff and bailing ..and ML’s bafflement as to his reason has tickled me greatly. His lack of self-awareness is truly boundless.

Comment on Analyzing people who talk about AGW denialism by bob droege

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gbaikie,

The PDO and the El Nino. la Nina cycles are part of natural variability, and as far as I know, predicting those events well enough to include in climate models are outside our capabilities right now.

Read the article on irreducible imprecision.


Comment on Analyzing people who talk about AGW denialism by Latimer Alder

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?? Please explain. I have yet to see much of a sense of humility or self-effacement among climatologists.

But maybe their recent history of continuous PR disaster upon PR disaster is at last inducing a hint of caution?

Comment on Analyzing people who talk about AGW denialism by manacker

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Bob

Let’s take your points one by one.

First, you pulled the old “sleight of hand” trick on me, by changing the data series from the past 15 years (May 1997 through April 2012), to the past 16 years (starting May 1966 instead).

Here’s the past 15 years’ HadCRUT3 record, which shows slight (if statistically insignificant) cooling, as I wrote:
http://www.woodfortrees.org/plot/hadcrut3vgl/from:1997.5/trend/plot/hadcrut3vgl/from:1997.5

Mauna Loa agrees with other CO2 measurements, so it’s not wrong.

I have not questioned the Mauna Loa readings at all.

why do you insist on using HADcrut 3?

IPCC uses HadCRUT3 extensively in its AR4 report; I just did the same.

The IPCC climate sensitivity is not an assumption.

The IPCC climate sensitivity is based on assumptions, which have been fed into computer models to arrive at estimates. GIGO?

And you are judging a transient response using an equilibrium calculation

IPCC has told us that the anthropogenic warming of the early decades of the 21st century would represent 0.2C per decade (transient). This equals 0.3C over 15 years (transient). The calculation I made shows the same 0.3C theoretical rise over the 15-year period. In actual fact, however, there was very slight cooling over this period instead. That was my point, which you have been unable to refute. The whole “transient” versus “equilibrium” discussion is one that is highly theoretical, in the first place, but –as you see – IPCC has figured 0.2C per decade as a transient response.

So you see, Bob, that all your points are invalid and you have been unable to explain the major discrepancy beyween the IPCC modeled projections and the observed reality.

Max

Comment on Analyzing people who talk about AGW denialism by Latimer Alder

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Ergo we cannot use climate models to predict future climates.

Great,

Stop wasting your time and my money on pretending we can. Scam over.

Comment on Analyzing people who talk about AGW denialism by steven

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Bob, I think everything I mentioned probably does matter if you are trying to quantify the value. Since I never bothered to learn statistics I will just rely on my logic for now. I don’t have a problem with you being satisfied with co2 as the main driver. I just want to see what happens when the primary known contributors aren’t all heading in the same direction before I make up my mind. The good new is it looks like we will get to see what happens in a reasonable amount of time.

Comment on Three new papers on interpreting temperature trends by cui bono

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Thanks Dr. Curry.

There didn’t seem much besides the obvious in the first paper, though perhaps the obvious needs pointing out to some who mannipulate the stats. I’d add reliance on just a few climate stations in an area of microclimates to the list of pitfalls. Also, nice to see the 1976 PDO shift get a mention – it seems to be on it’s way to being airbrushed out of AGW-style climate literature.

Dr McKitrick’s paper seems more substantial, but it’s difficult to see the IPCC welcoming his conclusions that many climate models are less accurate than chance.

Comment on Three new papers on interpreting temperature trends by billc

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The use of models in the same bucket so to speak as data-based variables in McKitrick’s paper is interesting. Has this been done before in climate studies”

Comment on Three new papers on interpreting temperature trends by manacker

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Judith Curry

Very interesting.

Have just read summaries, but not yet the whole papers themselves, but to your question:

My main question is whether the lead authors of the relevant IPCC AR5 chapter will pay attention to these papers; they should (and the papers meet the publication deadline for inclusion in the AR5).

Based on past performance I’d say that, regrettably, IPCC will only “pay attention” to papers that help them sell the consensus premise that AGW has been the principal cause of late 20th century warming and, thus, represents a serious potential threat to humanity and our environment, unless actions are taken to curtail GHG emissions.

Max


Comment on Three new papers on interpreting temperature trends by billc

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CB,

I guessed that the ES&T article (first paper) was a “feature” in ES&T lingo as opposed to an original research article. I was right. I’m pretty familiar with that journal having struck out twice there. Features are somewhere in between academic research articles and magazine pieces (this is not meant as a slight). Here’s what they say:

Balanced examination of significant developments relevant to environmental science & technology community; written in magazine style, assuming 1 year of university level physical and environmental sciences/engineering knowledge; peer-reviewed.

Comment on Three new papers on interpreting temperature trends by billc

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The link for the full text of McKitrick’s paper takes me to a paywalled version.

Comment on Analyzing people who talk about AGW denialism by manacker

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bob droege

Transient climate sensitivity can be determined from a regression analysis of CO2 vs Temperature using the historical data and CO2 from Mauna Loa, you could even do that yourself using Excel.

Yes.

And this calculation results in a TCS of between 0.8 and 1.4C, depending on whose estimate one uses for past solar forcing: IPCC (at 7% of total) or several solar studies (at around 50% of total).

Max

Comment on Three new papers on interpreting temperature trends by Wagathon

Comment on Science held hostage in climate debate by timg56

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Andreas,

Some reasonable points. I would answer yes there is a dichotomy between fighting against global warming and fighting against water poverty and energy poverty?

The first is that the proposals to fight climate change all result in higher costs for energy. They act to increasse energy poverty.

The second is that resources spent pushing or implementing global warming mitigation policies are resources that don’t get used on addressing water issues.

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