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Comment on Questioning the Forest et al. (2006) sensitivity study by Jim Cripwell

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Max, you write “Don’t let Pekka fool you with fancy rationalizations.”

I dont intend to. Pekka is trying to get around not admitting that Myhre et al never justified the use of radiative transfer models to estimate radiative forcing. So the claim people make that the estimations are valid because radiative transfer models are valid make no sense. Radiative transfer models were never developed to estimate radiative forcing; they have entirely different, very practical, uses. Myhre et al tried to fool, the scientific world by simply stating that “Three radiative transfer models were used”. and entirely missing out the absolutely vital step of showing why radiative transfer models are suitable to estimate radiaitve forcing, when they are clearly not.

That is the isssue that Pekka is trying to avoid with his red herring about being able to get reliable data without making any measurements. Which is also clearly complete nonsense.


Comment on Questioning the Forest et al. (2006) sensitivity study by manacker

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Pekka

Please cite the “empirical data” to which you refer.

Thanks.

Max

Comment on Questioning the Forest et al. (2006) sensitivity study by manacker

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Pekka

Nice words, but cite the “empirical evidence”, please.

Max

Comment on Week in review 6/29/12 by Captain Kangaroo

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No – but ask us if we give a rat’s arse. The maximum RECENT (h/t Fan – :wink: ) warming that might be attibuted to greenhouse gases is 0.1 degree C/decade – do you get this distinction?

http://s1114.photobucket.com/albums/k538/Chief_Hydrologist/?action=view&current=ensosubtractedfromtemperaturetrend.gif

Even then I am not sure that we have quite got a handle on secular changes in cloud. http://www.ipcc.ch/publications_and_data/ar4/wg1/en/ch3s3-4-4-1.html

And that we have seen last century the limits of natural variability.

http://s1114.photobucket.com/albums/k538/Chief_Hydrologist/?action=view&current=ENSO11000.gif

But interesting as all this is – it is more important in this critical century for humanity to get the policy settings right. Something we have proven to be such arses at (h/t Fan – :???: ). I’d go with free markets, economic growth as absolutely essential and democracy. The limits to growth argument is always about chessboards and grain. Obviously – any grain doesn’t stay long enough on the board to stockpile so the argument is moot. It shoeveled into hungry mouths. We are impoving supply a lot with something called conservation farming – the current super green revolution sequestering humungous amounts of carbon in the process. Just part of the technological prowess of humanity on which we increasingly depend and which is in large part the heritage of the western enlightenment. Freedom and science are marvelous things (h/t Fan – :oops: ). What say we forget this limits to growth nonsense – feed, clothe and educate humanity instead and head out to space for whatever other resources we might need in future. After all – if we survive this century we have a billion year future.

I have argued for some time that enlightenment liberals – those who are for freedom and not ever more totalitarian states – must take the high ground in framing a positive narrative for the future (h/t Fan – :razz: ) – it is now a matter of some import to be less reactive and more pro-active.

Comment on Climate for Corruption by gbaikie

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“This actually one of the few arguments against doing anything about AGW which makes any sense. I dare say that few of us on this blog will expect to live beyond about the year 2050. I may be wrong, but I wouldn’t expect anything too bad, climate wise, to happen by then. We’ll all probably be OK in our lifetimes. So why bother?”

There you go, tempterrain has said something rational.
But we add to this.
Why should we know more about climate now as compared to by 2050. Next why I or tempterrain am smarter or wiser than those living in 2040 to 2050. Or how can a past generation know what best for a generation in the future.
And finally no one talking or desiring much change such things as level of global CO2 or changes in global temperature. Instead it’s on the order lowering temperature by .005 C and maybe [at best] lowering CO2 by 10 ppm. Assuming everything goes as plans. Which so far it has not gone as planned.
Would those future generations be happy or saved by such small change as compared to all things we failed to do because our “relativity” small resources were largely expended doing this. Is not possible they would even want increase by .005 C and increase by 10 ppm.

For example wouldn’t future generation benefit more by experiments of fertilizing the ocean, done decade earlier, than anything we do about lowering CO2 and/or temperature.
Or considering how much hydrates deposits in the ocean, it seems a future generation could greatly benefit knowing whether mining such deposit is or is not economically viable. Such knowledge is real asset to future generations.
And of course there other aspects, some say in 15 years we will have more certainity about this whole climate change issue. I think 10 years will be enough time, even 5 years. If tend at present level, for 5 years, that means something. If we cool very slightly that means something else, and we warm slightly it means another thing. Whereas if we were rise in temperature so quickly as to meet UN projections of future warming, that would exciting moment for IPCC [with zero bad consequence.] If there is more than this warmer, if the arctic polar sea ice completely melts within 5 years. The skeptics are going to wrong aren’t they? No opposition, little in compromising. And as I said before the real losers will those currently in charge- they will be fired, because we need more capable people managing this whole thing. Or things would change, the government would actual do something because, first because they would have mandate, and second, they want to actually do something. Or A Bill Clinton is not going to ignore the Al Gore.
We aren’t doing anything now, other waste tax dollars, no amount of cheerleading will change this. What will have dramatic effect is if it’s supported by the science. If mother earth will indicate significant warming.
So we don’t need to wait until 2050, instead we could wait until there is stronger [or any] evidence that some kind action is needed.
If we get to point that some action is needed, it seems extremely unlikely that the solution that billion humans will come up with is increasing taxes of carbon. If simply a dumb solution.

Comment on Week in review 6/29/12 by Karl

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A transparent predetermined conclusion is still predetermined. The process will always be farce as long as all possible evidence is only allowed to support one conclusion. In a population afflicted with the Flynn effect this kind of logical problem might really matter.

Comment on Questioning the Forest et al. (2006) sensitivity study by capt. dallas 0.8 +/-0.2 per doubling maybe :)

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Jim, this is actually a pretty good discussion of the predicament.

http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2007/06/a-saturated-gassy-argument/

Back in the day, one of Angstrom’s buddies measured the radiant impact of CO2. In a 30cm long tube, he determined that CO2 was near saturation which Arrhenius didn’t take too well. Arrhenius spent a number of years trying to overcome this little obstacle before finally saying that the impact of CO2 was considerable less than his first estimate and mentioning 1.6 (2.1) with water vapor was more likely.

Spencer Weart mentions that had the tube been a little more than 8 times longer, then CO2 would not have appeared to be saturated. So just for a rough scale, 3 kilometers, CO2 would appear saturated and 25 kilometers, CO2 would not appear to be saturate. So somewhere between more than 3 kilometers and less than 25 kilometers CO2 would have the estimated radiant impact, provided of course it didn’t have to compete with water vapor.

The point Pekka is trying to make is that it can be measured indirectly but its impact cannot be proven without empirical evidence.

Since then there have been a number of radiosondes compared with satellite measurements showing that CO2 would have an impact of roughly 1.6C and some altitude depending on the amount of water vapor. Since CO2 has a more limited radiant spectrum than H2O, the H2O can easily over whelm CO2 forcing under the right conditions. H2O and CO2 below the effective radiant layer of the CO2 impact, would serve to reduce the CO2 forcing impact. So there is a CO2 “sweet spot” where it can do exactly what it is estimated to do. Above that Sweet spot it would do less. Below that sweet spot it would do less. So I would try to avoid buying property located between 3 kilometers and 25 kilometers in altitude in a dry environment :)

Comment on Questioning the Forest et al. (2006) sensitivity study by Michael

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Epic ‘Black Knight’ performance from mike.

Of more interest for those pondering the ‘psychology of skepticism’;

Latimer (Mr “three years of looking”) who was so interested in the question of ocean pH, suddenly lost interest in the issue when it was pointed out there was a quite a bit of work out there on it.


Comment on Week in review 6/29/12 by Captain Kangaroo

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You have the gist of webby’s problem Jim – he lives in alternate universe with very different physics.

Comment on Climate for Corruption by gbaikie

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“We seem to have managed to convince ourselves to look slightly beyond that date and the end of the current century is the new horizon. But we’ll all be just as dead in the year 2100 as we will in the years 2200, 2300 etc by which time I would suggest that the very adverse effects from AGW really will start to be felt. So I’m not quite sure why everyone, including Judith, seems to think the 21st century is the only important one.”

I don’t why you think you predict 100 years into the future.
I don’t why you imagine anyone who can do this.

China plans to go the moon by 2020. Can predict what will be the consequence of this. One could assume the repeat what US did. But
that fails, in fundamental way. The reason the US went to the Moon was a race against the Soviets. China is not in a race with anyone.
Some assume they doing for prestige, which somewhat acceptable, but for China to go to the Moon, and repeat what America did, seems like leads to vast loss of face. And Chinese unlike Americans really care about the prospect of losing face.
And even though to the uniformed it may seem like US isn’t going back to the Moon [false] there are many countries other than China or US which actively planning to go back to the Moon.
So describe what going on with the Moon by say 2040.
Another space related issue is suborbital space travel, I give 50% chance of this occurring within 2 years. And within 5 years, not only does seem probably, but rather than just be mostly a “US thing” it goes international. Where this is in ten years is very hard to predict.
Many billionaire would interested if you could give a good guess.

Now where could subobirtal space travel lead by say 2040.
Obviously harder to know than by 2022. And similar to predicting flying cars or fusion. Obviously my optimism has already been not met [whether it's suborbit or lunar exploration or many other things] so
I am just say what is conceivably possible. First, suborbital is a space related market. And what needed is a market in space- we already have one- the satellite market. So starting the satellite market, suborbital space travel could affect that market. The next market suborbital could affect is airline industry. In longer timeframe, one use suborbital travel go much faster than airline travel. Or much faster than the Concorde flew.
Airplane travel in the beginning was mostly about entertainment, and suborbital travel is following this same path. But everyone expects the cost of suborbital travel to lower significantly in terms of cost per seat.
And the lowering of cost per seat, allows more people to use it, and allows further things to be done- there is a desire for a better suborbital trip. Evenually one get to point of being a better way to travel than airlines. part of why it’s “better” could still be entertainment, mostly. But one also could better in terms getting somewhere fast. Whether package or person. I mean if have to get something halfway around the world in less than hour, and will pay for it, then some people will value this ability. And this continue the point where it’s cheaper and faster than any airline [airline is replaced, unless someone prefer to travel on plane the same way some people like to travel long distance on train or oceanliner.
Now going halfway around the world cheap, also means getting to space is cheap. Whether this can happen within fifty years depends on many things. One thing it might depend upon is what is happening on the moon by 2040 to 2050.

I think space is easier try to predict than what going to happen in terms of computers and nanotechnology and microbiology.

Comment on Questioning the Forest et al. (2006) sensitivity study by Brandon Shollenberger

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k scott denison, I explicitly stated “he didn’t promise anything,” pointing out he actually said. You offer no rebuttal to my remark, yet you go even farther than CTL went. CTL said Chris E Forest promised to do something. I showed he hadn’t. You say Forest not only promised to do it, but promised it “won’t be long.”

The comment had two simple sentences. Nothing in either amounted to any sort of promise, much less a promise for a quick response. If you disagree, please explain which words in Forest’s comment amount to the promise you claim he made.

Comment on Week in review 6/29/12 by Bart R

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CMS | June 30, 2012 at 4:48 pm |

http://www.usingenglish.com/reference/idioms/drag+your+feet.html

I get that US industry produced no commercial plants. And that the US therefore imports its cellulosic ethanol from other countries who did not drag their feet.

Foot-dragging, and then pretending when they get caught they weren’t? That’s just more typical rent-seeking behavior.

Sometimes government agencies aren’t there to spend tax money for no good (though I understand the cynicism, having watched all the subsidies to corn ethanol, the tax dodges for fossil profiteers, and heard the bleatingly shameless justifications for industry leeching off of government). The EPA’s principle measureable role is to ensure that property and resources are not depleted by private individuals without compensation. In the case of the fossil industry, private profiteers are depleting so much so fast only the most backwards of thinking could consider the EPA on the wrong side of defending taxpayers’ interests. And I’m saying this as a minarchist who knows smaller government to be better government.

Comment on Week in review 6/29/12 by jim2

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Let’s look at the new taxes – 21 of them:
“Eliminating Tax Expenditures” is Left-Wing Code for “Raising Taxes”

Comprehensive List of Obama Tax Hikes
Which one of these tax hikes will destroy the most jobs?

1. A 156 percent increase in the federal excise tax on tobacco: …

2. Obamacare Individual Mandate Excise Tax (takes effect in Jan 2014): …

Exemptions for religious objectors, undocumented immigrants, prisoners, those earning less than the poverty line, members of Indian tribes, and hardship cases (determined by HHS). Bill: PPACA; Page: 317-337

3. Obamacare Employer Mandate Tax (takes effect Jan. 2014):…

Combined score of individual and employer mandate tax penalty: $65 billion/10 years

4. Obamacare Surtax on Investment Income (Tax hike of $123 billion/takes effect Jan. 2013): …

5. Obamacare Excise Tax on Comprehensive Health Insurance Plans (Tax hike of $32 bil/takes effect Jan. 2018): …

6. Obamacare Hike in Medicare Payroll Tax (Tax hike of $86.8 bil/takes effect Jan. 2013): …

7. Obamacare Medicine Cabinet Tax (Tax hike of $5 bil/took effect Jan. 2011): …

8. Obamacare HSA Withdrawal Tax Hike (Tax hike of $1.4 bil/took effect Jan. 2011): …

9. Obamacare Flexible Spending Account Cap – aka “Special Needs Kids Tax” (Tax hike of $13 bil/takes effect Jan. 2013): …

10. Obamacare Tax on Medical Device Manufacturers (Tax hike of $20 bil/takes effect Jan. 2013): …

11. Obamacare “Haircut” for Medical Itemized Deduction from 7.5% to 10% of AGI (Tax hike of $15.2 bil/takes effect Jan. 2013): …

12. Obamacare Tax on Indoor Tanning Services (Tax hike of $2.7 billion/took effect July 2010): …

13. Obamacare elimination of tax deduction for employer-provided retirement Rx drug coverage in coordination with Medicare Part D (Tax hike of $4.5 bil/takes effect Jan. 2013) Bill:…

14. Obamacare Blue Cross/Blue Shield Tax Hike (Tax hike of $0.4 bil/took effect Jan. 1 2010): …

15. Obamacare Excise Tax on Charitable Hospitals (Min$/took effect immediately): $50,000 per hospital if they fail to meet new “community health assessment needs,” “financial assistance,” and “billing and collection” rules set by HHS. Bill: …

16. Obamacare Tax on Innovator Drug Companies (Tax hike of $22.2 bil/took effect Jan. 2011): …

17. Obamacare Tax on Health Insurers (Tax hike of $60.1 bil/takes effect Jan. 2014): …

18. Obamacare $500,000 Annual Executive Compensation Limit for Health Insurance Executives (Tax hike of $0.6 bil/takes effect Jan 2013). Bill: …

19. Obamacare Employer Reporting of Insurance on W-2 ($min/takes effect Jan. 2012): Preamble to taxing health benefits on individual tax returns. Bill: …

20. Obamacare “Black liquor” tax hike (Tax hike of $23.6 billion/took effect immediately). This is a tax increase on a type of bio-fuel. Bill: Reconciliation Act; Page: 105

21. Obamacare Codification of the “economic substance doctrine” (Tax hike of $4.5 billion/took effect immediately). This provision allows the IRS to disallow completely-legal tax deductions and other legal tax-minimizing plans just because the IRS deems that the action lacks “substance” and is merely intended to reduce taxes owed. Bill: Reconciliation Act; Page: 108-113

http://www.atr.org/comprehensive-list-obama-tax-hikes-a6433

Comment on Week in review 6/29/12 by A fan of *MORE* discourse

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Manacker, we hear yah talkin` about a Swiss system that has similar doctor/patient ratios, better outcomes, lower costs, full freedom of choice for every citizen, is fully privatised, and employs *zero* government officials.

Can you say again why every conservative in America isn’t 100% behind evolving ObamaCare in Swiss-style a direction (as ObamaCare is surely destined to do?).

`Cuz it seems like a no-brainer.

So if you feel different, use short words and plain logic, OK?

And more, it’s plain that politicians who have a poor grasp of healthcare, also have a poor grasp of climate-change.

Because politicians who parrot foolish slogans about the one, parrot foolish slogans about the other too.

As folks can plainly see, eh?

Comment on Week in review 6/29/12 by gbaikie

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“A small village is being looted and pillaged by a local gang of banditos who pee in the village well and raid the village granary while corrupting the village children with lies and temptations.

Seven gunslingers ride in at the behest of the villagers, clean up the gang of thugs, and ride on to the next village to repeat the same feats there.
…..

“They’re performing the right role of government, at the democratic urging of the people, in as minimal a way as can get the job done.”

First, it’s some kind of Western movie.
Second, it’s maybe capitalism, or more closely, vigilante.
A real government act would be the town people, organize
and deal with thugs by themselves. And if there are too timid to do
this, they should kill themselves as favor to the world.
It’s only in a nanny state that the people could be so crippled that
they are unable to resolve a local problem.

Any ways having official roving gangs is too much like the ATF, and if
you couldn’t understand how stupid this is without having ATF to demonstrate this idiocy, all you have to do is read the news.


Comment on Climate for Corruption by Eli Rabett

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That appears to be your answer to everything. Blame Michael Man First. OTOH, Eli supposes you can now tell him how MBH 1998 disappeared the MWP

Just to be clear tho Barclay was not balancing it’s trades on derivatives by manipulating the LIBOR, but profiting from them, and the smoking email indicates that people at Barclay’s did it for pals at other banks.

Sorry Charlie.

Comment on Week in review 6/29/12 by Captain Kangaroo

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Webby – it is the parsimoniuos in me. You are a waste of bandwidth entirely.

Comment on Epidemic of false claims by brent

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Science Suffers From an Excess of Significance
Want to win a political argument? Want to get your spouse to change a health habit? Want to get your story on page one? Flash a scientific study
http://johnstodderinexile.wordpress.com/2007/09/15/science-suffers-from-an-excess-of-significance/

brent comment:
The above statement, exemplifies the fundamental problem.
Viz: a perception of “science” as a source of authority, rather than simply an investigative tool.
Why pray tell do we hear constant plaintive cries that” science” is under attack? What is it that supposed scientists fear that they are being attacked by ? What is it they think they are in competition for or with ?
The problem IMO is that certain elements in science want to be a new “Priesthood” (and I do mean that literally).
As someone who’s education is in an Applied Science discipline, and who is very scientifically oriented ( science to me is merely an investigative tool, not a religion eg Scientism, Gaianism etc), I cringe every day at the highfalutin, overblown , overconfident claims which are not only misleading, but intended IMO to exalt science and scientists as the new source of authority, the new “Priesthood”

Example:

DailyKos Essay: Weinberg, Dawkins, Tyson, Porco, Sloan, and Harris – Idiots of Science on Parade
This is about the idiocy and the idiots at the La Jolla meeting, “Beyond Belief: Science, Religion, Reason and Survival.” The idiots of science were in attendance: Steven Weinberg, Richard Dawkins, Neil deGrasse Tyson, Carolyn Porco, Richard P. Sloan, and Sam Harris. I thought some of them were intelligent, until now.
Science is the best hammer in humanity’s toolkit. It is the most useful tool we have.
Because a few religious extremists have irritated the grand idiots of science, they propose to set up science as a religion. This is the dumbest idea I’ve ever heard. It’s like a guy who has mice in his house. Instead of setting a few traps for them, he blows up the house.
snip
Please note the names of the idiots of science. If you run into them on the street, be sure to explain how their attempt to “save” science could destroy science.
http://thesciencenetwork.org/docs/TheConversationContinues.pdf

Sam Harris: Science can answer moral questions
http://www.ted.com/talks/sam_harris_science_can_show_what_s_right.html

Briggs Dissects Sam Harris:

Can fMRI Predict Who Believes In Santa Claus? Or God? Part I

Did you know that “regions” of your brain light up when you think about Santa Claus or God? And that these “regions” are thought to be “associated” with various behaviors like excess emotion, schizophrenia, and other, gentler forms of nuttiness?
It’s all true. Scientists regularly stick people’s heads inside machines, ask the people to think of this or that, and then watch as the machines show “regions” of the brain glowing orange. The scientists then employ statistical methods guaranteed to generate over-confidence, but which allow the scientists to write papers which contain broad, even bracing, claims about all of humanity and of how everybody’s brain functions.
This sort of thing is all the rage, so much so that hardly a week passes without new headlines about what secrets the Whitecoat Brigade have uncovered in the brain (this week: Study shows how scientists can now ‘read your mind’).
It is therefore of great interest to us to examine this phenomena and see what it means. I have chosen one paper which I believe is representative of the worst excesses of the field. My goal is to show you that the conclusion, as stated by the authors, and one the authors believe they have proved, is actually far from proved, is in fact scarcely more likely to be true given the experiment than it was before the experiment, and that what was actually proved was how likely scientist’s are to find in their data their own preconceptions.
Warning: I mean this critique to be exhaustive, at least in major theme, so while I run the risk of exhausting your patience, my excuse is that the length of this piece is necessary to do a full job (it will be spread across Parts, and not all on one day). I especially want to hear from those who support the paper’s position, and who claim that the criticisms I advance are not as damning as I believe they are.

fMRIs and God

The paper is “The neural correlates of religious and nonreligious belief,” published in PLoS One by Sam Harris and others in association with UCLA’s Staglin Center for Cognitive Neuroscience.
http://wmbriggs.com/blog/?p=4923

Seven part Series:

WRAP UP: Can fMRI Predict Who Believes In Santa Claus? Or God? Part VII
There are a number of serious difficulties with this study. The experimental protocol is unusual; the “stimuli” used were gathered form a dubious source and were not as simply interpretable as Harris believed they were, nor were they always relevant; Harris’s definition of Christian is extraordinarily narrow; results that were not desired were removed after the experiment ended, yet we never learn how many or what effect this removal had; i.e., would leaving these data in change the results?
The answers to stimuli were averaged within people, a dubious statistical procedure that is nowhere justified; we never learn how many questions each person received, nor how many questions from each person were tossed, nor did (apparently) every person get the same questions. The student volunteers were first subjected to some kind of purity test, yet the details of this were never explained: only 15 “committed” Christians were used and only 15 non-Christians mistakenly called “nonbelievers”, presumably non-committed. There is good evidence the selection of these students and the kind of “stimuli” used introduced a bias in the direction of the results Harris expected; i.e. the suspicion of confirmation bias is strong.
The raw fMRI data was first statistically manipulated before being subjected to further analysis; the fMRI pictures were all ad hoc comparisons, with loose, just-so stories of what this or that region of the brain does; none of the regions that glowed orange1 were noted beforehand, but those areas that did glow were given a story after the fact. (See dead salmon fMRI study.)
The paper is sloppy and disorganized. It passed “peer review”, but we know how weak a filter for truth this is. It is telling that the paper was not only published, but enthusiastically cited by other authors. Well, scientists often don’t have time to read anything but abstracts of papers. Worst of all, no other group could take this paper and re-produce the experiment: there are simply too many unknowns.
http://wmbriggs.com/blog/?p=4942

http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2009/09/fmrisalmon/

Comment on Week in review 6/29/12 by bob droege

Comment on Epidemic of false claims by Steven Mosher

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I suppose one could add that jumping up and down about the climate being worst, does more harm as well.

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