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Comment on The Government-Climate Complex by Latimer Alder

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@colose

Here’s what you could have written:

‘I agree that some of the practices of the more established colleagues in climatology have been substandard and have helped to cast doubt upon the integrity of us all.

It is my hope that – if and when I arrive at a senior position – my personal example of integrity, openness and transparency will help to reestablish the reputation of climatology.

I am proud of the work that I do and will always be happy to defend it whatever the source of disagreement’.

That would have been the statement of a man of honour and leadership.

Instead you wrote just about the exact opposite.

Go figure.


Comment on The Government-Climate Complex by omnologos

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Let’s not be too harsh on Colose. As a talkative practitioner of the filed, of course he’s bound to show all the worst aspects of it. Otherwise he wouldn’t be in climate science, or he wouldn’t be very talkative.

Comment on The Government-Climate Complex by climatereason

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Chris Colose

At least you have the courage to engage with us here, alhough perhaps the manner in which you do so could do with a little polishing. Personally, I do not think that the personal attacks that sceptics lauch on people like you are helpful as it only encourages disengagement by those being attacked.

On the previous thread I directly emailed Andy Lacis personally about his comment on 40000ppmv and got back a perfecty civil reply. Similarly I have contacted Trenberth (terse but civil) Slingo and many others.

Engaging, rather than attacking, will bring better understanding on both sides, against the overall background that climate science do not as yet know all the answers and there is a tendancy to fail to archve or lose material which encourages suspicion. I would add that many papers are poorly written in the first place. Mann and Phil Jones write good lucid material- irrespective of whether i agree with them or not- but many other climate scientists do need lessons in how to construct a paper.

So do keep visiting here, but a little backpedalling on the attitude might help to get your points over better.
tonyb

Comment on Week in review 7/6/12 by Pekka Pirilä

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Jim,

The downward IR does increase with more CO2, but that is almost totally compensated by changes in convective heat transfer unless the atmosphere has warmed as well.

A better explanation for the apparent discrepancy may be that the temperatures tend to move together and the warming of the oceans leads to very small changes in the temperature. It is measured rather by changes in heat content than changes in temperature because of the huge heat capacity of the oceans. There’s a difference in the behaviour of the surface ocean and the bulk ocean temperatures, but they affect each other as well. Surface ocean behaves in an intermediary way between deeper ocean and the atmosphere.

The oceans slow down the rate of temperature changes. Both the temperature of the surface ocean and the atmosphere are rising slowly and together, deeper ocean takes the bulk of the heat but the corresponding temperature change is very small, small enough and non-uniform enough to make accurate estimates of the change in heat content impossible. The variability in convective heat transfer in oceans is enough to allow surface ocean to cool temporarily while the heat content of oceans keeps on rising.

The continents warm more and they have also on impact on the temperature of the atmosphere. That should add to the temperature difference between the surface ocean and lower troposphere.

Comment on The Government-Climate Complex by Faustino

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tonyb @ 4.24 a.m., well said. Civil engagement is a better basis for understanding and resolving issues than abuse.

Comment on The Government-Climate Complex by Beth Cooper

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Tony
‘ a little back pedalling on the attitude might help to get your pointsd over better’ … lol, appropriate metaphor in the climate of the times. le Tour de France continues tonight with the battle of heroes, UK Bradley Wiggins on top, Oz Cadell Evans second place, they’ll battle it out in the time trial tonight. As in climate science debate, time will tell.

Comment on The Government-Climate Complex by Spartacusisfree

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The problem is the assumptions made by climate science about the nature of thermalisation. 115 years’ ago, J Willard Gibbs introduced the Principle of Indistinguishability: molecules in an assembly have no memory. Those who teach that trapped photon energy decays over 1000 collisions, the average time an isolated molecule takes to re-emit the photon, teach false physics. This cannot happen because of quantum exclusion..

Because a random thermal emission of a photon occurs simultaneously with absorption, there is on average no local thermalisation so long as the energy can be transferred at near the speed of light to sinks; heterogeneous interfaces and space. So, atmospheric GHGs probably act as a pseudo-scattering energy transfer medium with warming mainly at clouds. The rider to this argument is that above the cloud level, thermalisation rapidly decreases so DOWN emissivity falls to zero at TOA.

That means you don;t need to claim imaginary ‘back radiation’ from the lower atmosphere bounces back to make the Earth’s surface emit at the S-B black body level in a vacuum, a concept disproved experimentally for over a Century. But by eliminating the imaginary ~40% energy increase 100[333 - 238.5]/238.5, it predicts very little if any CO2-AGW!

A rider is that the thermalisation in the ‘PET bottle’ experiment is from pseudo-scattered IR absorbed in the walls. Nahle’s recent Mylar balloon experiment, which shows no detectable warming when you reduce the PET thickness from ~40 mil to ~ 3 mil is attractive but I would like to see it done properly before accepting it as definitive proof of indirect thermalisation.

[The difference of the IR spectrum from clouds and clear sky is a very strong case for the above argument.]

Comment on Week in review 7/6/12 by Pekka Pirilä

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More CO2 influences the energy balance of the surface by making the coupling of the surface temperature and the temperature of the lower atmosphere just a very little bit stronger through the combination of stronger absorption of IR from the surface by the lowest atmosphere and more downwelling IR from the atmosphere. Thus the temperature difference between the surface and the atmosphere at some fixed altitude (a few meters or a few tens of meters) is reduced by a very small amount. Beyond that the net effect is very small as long as there’s no temperature inversion at low altitudes as convection compensates the changes in radiative heat balance almost totally.

Under conditions of temperature inversion (and also other non-convective conditions with a lapse rate clearly less than the adiabatic value) the surface temperature is influenced more by the change in CO2 concentration as there’s no compensation by the convection. This is, however, more typical for a winter night in Finland than most of oceans.

I don’t know about the discussion on RC, but that might also be based on the compensating effect of convection.


Comment on The Government-Climate Complex by omnologos

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It is a logical fallacy to believe that civil engagement can be attained with people who openly despise you. Lacis may be the sweetest correspondent in the world, yet he’ll always take advantage of Judith’s blindness to distribute gallons of bile in the climatosphere. There is obviously not a single thing in common with him to talk about.

Comment on 5 logical fallacies that make you more wrong than you think by Robert

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“Robert, misunderstanding. I put the #6 there for a reason.”

You’re right, I totally missed that [blush].

Comment on The Government-Climate Complex by bob droege

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No way, I was refering to scientific scepticism, since this is a scientific discussion, the general english definitions do not apply.

You so called skeptics just can’t stand that the evidence is against you.

Comment on The Government-Climate Complex by Edim

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Skeptics are for evidence, even if evidence is against them, ideally.

Comment on 5 logical fallacies that make you more wrong than you think by DocMartyn

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“was any force for the abolition of slavery more powerful than Harriet Stowe’s Uncle Tom’s Cabin? Was any argument against racism as potent as the relation between Huck and Jim in Mark Twain’s Huckleberry Finn?”

Uncle Tom is used as a prejudicial term for an African-American who ‘acts white’, or is successful or a Republican. just Google Uncle Tom and Clarence Thomas, or Bill Cosby or Herman Cain.

Huckleberry Finn is banned in most schools because Huck, who is helping his friend to escape from slavery, calls African-American’s ‘niggers’. The authentic manner of Huck’s speech and his authentic to the time/place beliefs, such that slavery is the natural order of things, mean that this book is classed as racist.
Huckleberry Finn ranks as the fourth most banned book in the USA:-
http://www.csmonitor.com/Books/Latest-News-Wires/2011/0105/Huck-Finn-Controversy-over-removing-the-N-word-from-Mark-Twain-novel

Comment on The Government-Climate Complex by Robert

Comment on 5 logical fallacies that make you more wrong than you think by Berényi Péter

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Notes

#5.2 We are not programmed at all. We may be predisposed to do things (like rather win than lose), but that’s not being programmed.
#5.1 This is why math is an indispensable part of proper education. And I do mean math, not merely playing around with numbers and shapes. I mean the very concept of mathematical proof, when there is only one way to win: to get it right.
#4.3 The brain never understands anything, the mind does.
#4.2 Probability theory is mostly useless in real life. That’s because a probability measure does not even make sense without a pre-defined sample space. Which is the set of all possible outcomes. But, except in very narrowly defined situations, one can never know what is “possible”. It can easily be demonstrated in fields where sophisticated probabilistic models are developed to predict likelihood of various modes of failure (like nuclear plants or aircrafts). Actual disasters, analysed after they have happened, almost always contain one or more events that no one thought of in advance, therefore they were missing from the model.
#4.1 Rare events happen often. That is, the majotity of events shaping our destiny are once-in-a-lifetime events, which can’t possibly be modelled in advance. Real distributions have fat tails, completely lost in fog.
#3.1 People tend to be dishonest all the time, that’s a fact. But it is never a sufficient reason to imitatate them, is it? Elevate your soul, don’t let it sink into the mud.
“Why should I be honorable? I’ll be laid out regardless!
Why shouldn’t I be honorable? I’ll be laid out regardless.”
J.A.
#2.1 We are not hard-wired, we are free.
#1.2 Public debate is not for changing the mind of your opponent, facts or not. It is for changing the mind of the audience, and sticking to facts is one of the best vehicles to accomplish it.
#1.1 This is why all details of science have to be laid out in public.


Comment on 5 logical fallacies that make you more wrong than you think by P.E.

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Yup. It seems like our oh so logical and analytical author stepped right smack into the middle of a big, steaming pile of urban legend. As Johnny would say, :) :) :)

Comment on 5 logical fallacies that make you more wrong than you think by mike

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Hey Steve! Been doin’ some further deep-thinkin’ like on your last and that has got me wondering just what you’re doing with all that “rock-solid” scientific CAGW scam knowledge you and “the team” are keepin’ so close-hold that even FOIA requests can’t pry it from your grasping little mitts.

I mean, like, someone with a sure-fire knowledge of Florida sea-level rises within their working life-times just has to be in a position to make a big-time, real-estate “killing”, armed with that knowledge. So, Steve, since we’re such ol’ pals, and all, why don’t you, just between you and me, reveal just what really great, Florida properties you’re invested in? I won’t tell anyone else. Promise.

And, Steve, don’t try to kid me or anyone else. I know you’re the kind of greenshirt who puts his money with his mouth is. So, I just know, you’ve got some great deals going for you in Florida, guy. You know, like Robert.

Comment on 5 logical fallacies that make you more wrong than you think by Robert Austin

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“Rock solid” as in granite or as in pumice? “Rock solid” is synonymous with saying that the science is settled, we have nothing left to learn.

Comment on 5 logical fallacies that make you more wrong than you think by RobertInAz

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My point is that while the narrative was powerful, the pro-slavery incentives were fading away allowing the moral argument to gain greater traction. The country may have achieved abolition in a decade or three without civil war.

Not related to moral imperatives, it may be that the climate wars fade away in a decade or three with no real consensus ever achieved on the underlying science around CO2 forcing:
- Human CO2 emissions may not reach projected levels.
- Atmospheric CO2 may not increase as projected in response to those emissions.
- Other cooling forcing may become more important (solar, particulates, interstellar dust cloud).

Comment on 5 logical fallacies that make you more wrong than you think by DocMartyn

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Robert you are talking nonsense. The existence of, shudder, unforced periodic warming and cooling in the recent past has been at the root of the majority of CAGW skepticism.
Unlike Mosher, I think Mann’s various Hockey Sticks were central to the whole CAGW movement in suggesting that prior to 1960 the past temperature was flat.
If you have a number of different, but not tightly couples, periodic processes which can redistribute heat around the planet you will have harmonics that produce both spikes and long warm/cool periods.
Add to this the complete ability of the field to co-opt experts in other fields, then you have the mess you see now.

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