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Comment on Making Scotland the Green Energy Capital of Europe by Steve Milesworthy

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Peter Lang,

As I say, you delight in presenting lists of leading questions, and then object strongly if your readers refuse to be led.

In your Yankee Rowe example, you failed to understand that the project has essentially hidden costs by passing the unknown liabilities onto the current taxpayer and the tax payer for the next several generations.

In the case of Fukushima you ignore the financial costs caused by the demand to evacuate large areas for some considerable period, and the power problems that have impacted production in Japan.

In the case of Windscale, you ignore the cost of the damage that is only now being dealt with. And there is of course the financial failure of BNFL.

Now no doubt your rational mind will have prevented all this from occurring if you had been in charge, but the world in which I live doesn’t work like that.


Comment on Philosophical reflections on climate model projections by gbaikie

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“So, taking out “greenhouse gases which absorb and radiate thermal infrared” leaving the bulk atmosphere of oxygen and nitrogen means taking out water because it takes water evaporation to get water vapour – without water the Earth would be 67°C . Think Deserts. Your main “AGW greenhouse gas” cools the atmosphere by 52°C to bring the temp down to 15°C.”

Way I look at it, CO2 doesn’t have much effect upon temperature.

It *seems* to me that the warmers tend believe CO2 has considerably more warming than I think it does, and I don’t see anywhere in science papers that much warming is assigned to CO2. Instead some stuff which one could call scientific papers, seems to argue that relative small forcing has one kind other of an accumulative effect. That global climate/temperature is somewhat balanced system requiring little force cause it to tip. And the little force *is* [and can only be] CO2. Which find somewhat amusing.
But anyhow, the point science doesn’t say CO2 causes much warming.

Another issue H20 is avoided, and for example that humans directly add H2O to atmosphere [widespread and blatant farming irrigation] is quickly dismissed. I find the speed of dismissal more interesting what possible effect adding rivers water to crops could have upon climate.

But warmers seem suggest they imagine the CO2 does have some kind of large effect [Earth somehow become similar to Venus].

But it seems Myrrh thinks greenhouse gases have large effect in terms of cooling. I think possible that CO2 may cause small amount cooling, but it seems if CO2 caused much warming or much cooling they the finger prints of this effect. Myrrh large effect seems to be from greenhouse gases rather than just CO2.
But going to start with just CO2.
If remove all earth atmosphere except the amount CO2 in current atmosphere. Then earth’s atmosphere would like Mars, except far less atmosphere. I don’t see such small amount atmosphere having much effect- it wouldn’t be much effect different than the Moon’s lack of any atmosphere.
Mars has ~2.5 x 10^16 kg or 2.5 x 10^3 tonnes or 25 trillions tonnes
Earth has couple trillion tonnes and spread over much bigger planet.

If Earth had more CO2 like Mars does- I still don’t see it having much effect as compared to a Moon vacuum. And don’t expect it significantly colder then compared a vacuum or a planet with same quality N2 as the CO2.

Now add water to earth. Adding oceans of water will make some noticeable affect. What I think the effect from water in terms temperature is transporting more energy than what can transported by air.

Comment on Learning from the octopus by David Springer

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One fish says to the other fish we can’t swim faster than the shark. The other fish replies I only have to swim faster than you.

Comment on Learning from the octopus by David Springer

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Try recession and higher fuel prices.

Comment on Making Scotland the Green Energy Capital of Europe by Latimer Alder

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@louise

Is it the change in Arctic ice that has led to the recent increase in PB populations?

Comment on Learning from the octopus by David Springer

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Free will is an illusion. Planning is folly but we can’t help doing it because the script calls for it. Que sera sera.

Comment on Making Scotland the Green Energy Capital of Europe by Louise

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Lattie – read the second last para in my post above. Curtailing hunting (of bears and their prey, seals) has undoubtedly led to an increase in polar bear numbers in the recent past.

However, a continuing reduction in Arctic sea ice, from which they hunt, will also undoubtedly effect their ability to hunt and ultimately their numbers.

That you are in denial of this says a lot about your approach to the implications of AGW.

Comment on Philosophical reflections on climate model projections by Myrrh

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Philosophy of Science

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophy_of_science

The philosophy of science is concerned with the assumptions, foundations, methods, and implications of science.
….
Objectivity of observations in science

It is vitally important for science that the information about the surrounding world and the objects of study be as accurate and as reliable as possible. For the sake of this, measurements which are the source of this information must be as objective as possible.

Two pages from NASA now following AGWScienceFiction fisics and not presenting accuracy and reliability about our surrounding world.

http://science.nasa.gov/earth-science/oceanography/ocean-earth-system/ocean-water-cycle/
http://science.nasa.gov/earth-science/oceanography/ocean-earth-system/ocean-carbon-cycle/

In the first there is no mention of rain being carbonic acid, and, it no longer shows the information it used to give that without water the Earth would be 67°C. The Wayback machine no longer shows archived changes.

The second also lacks any real world accuracy, no mention of rain or carbonic acid or precipitation at all in the Carbon Cycle.

[All pure clean rain is carbonic acid, as such carbon dioxide has the same residence time in the atmosphere as water, 8-10 days.]

NASA has also changed its teaching on thermal infrared which I’ve noted elsewhere, but can fetch if any are interested.

NASA is now teaching AGWSF fisics which has no part in science or the philosophy of science – it properly belongs in the category Confidence Tricks, and I’ve been trying to show some of the sleights of hand used. Wiki has failed to update its page to include the AGW scam..

However, it also belongs in the category Religion, faith not science.

John Brignell has written a good piece on this, Global Warming as Religion and not Science:

http://www.numberwatch.co.uk/religion.htm

=============
See also
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_science

Science as Natural Philosophy

Philosophy means love of wisdom – if one can’t tell the difference between fact and fiction then one has neither Philosophy nor Science.


Comment on Making Scotland the Green Energy Capital of Europe by Latimer Alder

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@louise

So the actual data tells us that numbers have been going up. And it is only speculation that they will go down in the future.

Experience tells me that very few alarmist speculations turn out as predicted. So you’ll forgive me if I reserve judgement until it actually happens (or not).

Comment on Making Scotland the Green Energy Capital of Europe by Louise

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Well sure, perhaps the polar bears will learn to build rafts from which to hunt from, afterall, plenty of posters here seem to think adaptation will solve all the problems associated with AGW.

Comment on Learning from the octopus by Steve Milesworthy

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Peter Lang

It is well worth reading. AGW is not one of the highest risks.

I think that being in the top 5 or 6 counts as “one of the highest risks” according to the citation you have chosen. It is only lower than the other because it is more uncertain, and it is also relevant to at least three of the other top 5 risks (water, food issues and income disparity).

Comment on Learning from the octopus by Oliver K. Manuel

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When Hiroshima vanished on 6 August 1945 and
then Nagasaki disappeared on 9 August 1945, . . .

from the sudden release of energy (E) stored as mass (m) in cores of uranium and plutonium atoms, respectively,

Fear and the Survival instinct> were traits shared alike by Communists, Fascists, Capitalists, Socialists . . .
Atheists, Popes, Agnostics and Preachers,
The Wealthy and the Impoverished,
Well-educated and uneducated,
Democrats and Republicans,
Conservatives and Liberals,
Paupers and members of
The Royal Family !

What to do?

Only one answer would insure the safety of the most distinguished, influential members of society: Enslave the rest and hide access to information on energy (E) stored as mass (m) in cores of atoms, planets, stars and galaxies.

The rest is well-documented history that can only be falsified when the most distinguished, influential members of society order their pet pseudo-scientists to publicly discuss the experimental observations and data summarized here [1], and then confirmed by new observations on the source of energy that made our elements, still sustains our lives and controls Earth’s climate today:

http://tinyurl.com/cfoqtn8

1. “Neutron repulsion,” The Apeiron Journal 19, 123-150 (2012) http://tinyurl.com/7t5ojrn

With kind regards,
Oliver K. Manuel
Former NASA Principal
Investigator for Apollo
http://www.omatumr.com
http://omanuel.wordpress.com/about

Comment on Making Scotland the Green Energy Capital of Europe by Peter Lang

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Steve Milesworthy,

You are very hypocritical. You state:

As I say, you delight in presenting lists of leading questions, and then object strongly if your readers refuse to be led.

You don’t answer my questions but you expect yours to be answered. I have answered yours but you have not answered mine. You avoided them and obfuscated.

Normally I provide explanations rather than ask question. But that wasn’t working with you because you kept asking silly, irrelevant questions about Greeenpeace’s anti-nuclear talking points. So I changed tack and asked leading questions. If you had attempted to answer them, you wpould have realised how silly are your down in the weeds questions.

For example you asked about the “deadly dangerous slag” at Windscale. So I asked you haw deadly, dangerous?” you haven’t answered?

I asked you how many fatalities nuclear waste had caused so far? You didn’t answer that.

I asked you how many fatalities per TWh of electricity supplied (so you could compare this figure with other electricity generation technologies to get some perspective. The idea was to get you to see how irrelevant and silly and scaremongering are the questions you asked me.

You said:

In your Yankee Rowe example, you failed to understand that the project has essentially hidden costs by passing the unknown liabilities onto the current taxpayer and the tax payer for the next several generations.

Wrong. I do understand that the costs of waste management are included in the cost of electricity from nuclear power plants. The cost has been more than paid for. The power plants are now takilng the government to court for compensation for over payment because the government has delayed progress with Yucca Mountain repository. Furthermore, the used fuel has high future value (some 99 times more value than has already been extracted), so it is not going to be disposed of, no matter what the politics of the time say.

I suggest it is you that fails to understand. And you fail to be able to see matters in perspective. You are concerned about trivial quantities of used nuclear fuel but don’t seem to be in the slightest concerned about the much larger quantities of toxic wast from other electricity generating technologies. The latter do not decay over time, are vastly larger quantities, some are more toxic. You also seem to have completely ignored that nuclear is already avoiding some 160,000 fatalities per year (assuming nuclear replaced coal), and would avoid over a million per year by 2050 if nuclear replaced all coal generation.

Your problem is you know next to nothing about this issue and your mind is closed to knowing anything about it. It’s the same closed mind that leads you to believe unquestioningly in CAGW. Zealots and alarmists on one issue tend to be the zealots and alarmists on many. You seem to be a zealot and alarmist of CAGW and nuclear power.

Instead of me answering for the nth time your comments about Windscale, Fukushima and others, I’d urge again you to attempt to answer these questions I asked before. If you do attempt to answer them honestly, you will definitely learn a lot and getter a proper perspective on costs and risks. Picking out Greenpeace anti-nuclear talking points instead of looking objectively at the important comparisons is keeping your brain locked in anti-nuclear, scaremongering thinking. I’d urge you again to challenge your beliefs. Have a genuine go at answering these questions (I’ve answered yours repeatedly, but you have not yet answered these, other than by obfuscation) Here are the questions (again):

1. How long have we had nuclear power and how many reactor-years of experience do we have with commercial nuclear power operation? (hint: 56 years and 15,000 reactor years of operation).

2. In that time, how many people have been killed, fatally injured or made sick by radioactive waste?

3. What is the toxicity of radioactive waste compared with the toxicity of highly toxic chemicals?

4. How long does radioactive waste last and compare that with the life of the toxic chemicals?

5. How much radioactive waste have we produced so far and how much toxic chemical waste have we produced so far?

6. Where is the toxic chemical waste? (hint dispersed in the environment all over the world

7. Where is the nuclear waste? Held in canisters like this http://www.yankeerowe.com/http://www.nukeworker.com/pictures/displayimage-94-5205.html#top_display_media (by the way, those 16 canisters contain all the used fuel from 31 years of operation and 34 TWh of electricity supplied at a life time capacity factor of 74%; the Yankee Rowe plant has been totally decommissioned: http://www.yankeerowe.com/ .

8. Got any wind or solar farms with a record like that?

9. Who in their right mind would want to get rid of the once used nuclear fuel, given it still has 99% of its useable energy remaining for use in the next generation of reactors?

If you don’t attempt to answer them honestly, it is a sure sign you are more interested in pushing your ideological beliefs than in wanting to do anything about mitigation.

Comment on Learning from the octopus by Steve Milesworthy

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The low-costs backstop policy seems to be based on:

a policy based on a hypothetical low-cost technology for removing carbon dioxide from the atmosphere, or for producing energy without carbon dioxide emission.

such as solar power, wind power and artificial CO2-eating trees.

Sounds great (apart from the CO2 eating trees bit – but you never know).

Comment on Week in review 8/18/12 by claudiusdenk

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You are making my point for me. With the question of biological origins there are three possible conclusions one can draw after examining the evidence: 1) Evolution (natural selection) is true; 2) That god created it all is true; 3) Inconclusive. You are using the same logic that creationists use to come to the conclusion that the correct answer is 2 rather than 1 or 3.

The fact that CO2 forcing is immeasurable doesn’t mean that you can conclude anything you want and call it science.


Comment on Week in review 8/18/12 by Jim D

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He’s Canadian. They have a functional government over there.

Comment on Week in review 8/18/12 by lolwot

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It’s also important to stress that this doesn’t mean abandoning a free market system. The vulnerabilities can be solved with a few alterations. A carbon tax is such an alternation and is meant to induce an artificial short-term pressure onto the free market so that (hopefully) the system will take into account a long-term concern, or in the case of fishing stock collapses an artificial cap is placed on a resource to force the market to avoid depletion.

Comment on Week in review 8/18/12 by Speed

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<i>We took lots of photos of the google-ized building.</i> Will you be posting these soon?

Comment on Learning from the octopus by adam

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manacker – you speak a lot of sense.

Comment on Week in review 8/18/12 by lolwot

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Claudiusdenk: “With the question of biological origins there are three possible conclusions one can draw after examining the evidence: 1) Evolution (natural selection) is true; 2) That god created it all is true; 3) Inconclusive.”

The weight of evidence points at #1. You argue the weight of evidence is problematic because it’s open to people tending to see the evidence that confirms what they already believe as being more weighty than that that disputes it. Indeed but nevertheless that’s how #1 is reached, by weight of evidence.

You say: “The fact that CO2 forcing is immeasurable doesn’t mean that you can conclude anything you want and call it science.”

I don’t think it is immeasurable.

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