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Comment on ‘Pause’ discussion thread: Part II by Steve Milesworthy

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Latimer,
I watched a bit of the lecture you linked to.

You have used presumed authority from some unnamed scientist that you may have misunderstood to claim that one month’s data is an accurate measure of “global warming” – ie. a metric for whole biosphere.

Experience, however tells us that the value goes up and down rather a lot from month to month. Logic tells us that for that to be true *and* for the measure to be a metric for the energy content of the biosphere, a lot of heat (net flow of energy) must be entering or leaving the biosphere from month to month. Since this flow of energy is not observed, one must question your understanding borne out of your faith in your understanding as obtained from this unnamed scientist or scientists.

I got that from between minutes 7 and 16.


Comment on Coping with deep climate uncertainty by Bart R

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Heinrich the Norwegian Elkhound | October 19, 2012 at 11:25 am |

I’ll meet you halfway. Rather than remove the word, I suggest replacing it with its opposite: “uneconomical”.

AllenC | October 19, 2012 at 11:48 am |

Huh. I’ve provided 3 links. I could provide six hundred more, each progressively more compelling, objective and uninfluenced by industry spin.

You’ve provided assertions without support.

I suggest that between the two of us zealots appealing to emotion, I’m the one backed by fact.

Comment on ‘Pause’ discussion thread: Part II by thisisnotgoodtogo

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Steve Miesworthy,
You said

“If you have a thermostat in your hallway that accurately clicks off at 20C, what temperature is it in your lounge when the thermostat turns the heating off?

a) The temperature is less than 20C – while the heating has been on, it’s cool outside and the window in the lounge is open.
b) It’s warmer than 20C – there is a fire burning nicely in the grate.
c) The temperature is 20C – the grubby thermostat *must* be trusted. Anyone who suggests anything else is a pathetic arse.”

So first,your objection to my statement is that it doesn’t matter because your statement only indicated that the thermostat shut off the heat at 20 degrees.
My objection,was that the thermostat would shut off the heating element before the thermostat itself reaches 20 degrees.
Since your multiple choice answers would lead the respondent to expect that the hallway WAS IN FACT 20 degrees at the thermostat, then the lounge would be judged as somewhat cooler or hotter than THAT. But it never was THAT.

We can add other real world problems such as the fire blazing sucks air through by natural infiltration routes of the house and therefore through the hallway and even the lounge, cooling the house itself.

Your base problem n the argument is that the thermostat is all we have, and you;re agin’ it..

Comment on ‘Pause’ : Waving the Italian Flag by Bart R

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willard (@nevaudit) | October 17, 2012 at 10:34 pm | <i>Quite frankly, I could not care less about trendology,..</i> It doesn't take much to recognize I have a fascination for things that I know to be ultimately pointless and to always lead to wrong conclusions eventually. That realization about most things leads people to care less about them. Still, I would say that my characteristic of interest in what is obviously pointless and wrong is far more consistent with my participation in Climate Etc. than is your careless attitude toward things we both recognize to be so.

Comment on ‘Pause’ : Waving the Italian Flag by steven mosher

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manaker.

“The truth of the matter is that IPCC’s CAGW premise as stated in AR4, which is based on a climate sensitivity of 3.2C, is not supported by empirical scientific evidence (Feynman)”

The truth of the matter is that AR4 summarizes the empirical evidence for the estimation of climate sensitivity. That summary states that climate sensitivity for a doubling of C02 is anywhere between 1.5C and 6C. The mean of these estimates is close to 3.2. This figure is estimated using the following kinds of studies.

A) deep paleo studies. we estimate the temperatures in the past.
we estimate the evolution of forcing over time. we estimate the
temperature today. From these observations we can estimate a climate sensitivity number. Those numbers center around 3 C with
uncertainty bounds of +- 1.5C.

B) near term paleo. So for example the MWP and the LIA. here again,
we estimate the temperature, we estimate the forcing and we estimate a change in temp due to forcing. These studies tend to give
much wider confidence intervals on the high side.

C) Surface record. using the surface record as the data, one can aslo estimate the response due to changes in forcing. For some details on how thats done see Lucia’s blog. Here too we see numbers that fall
inside the range.

D) Volcanic response. The response after a volcano, how quickly the system recovers, gives you an estimate for the relaxation response. From this you have an estimate of sensitivity. Again, the numbers fall within the range I describe above.

E) satellite work. You must be familiar with Lindzen and Dessler and Spencer. Each of them uses observations to estimate sensitivity. Lots of interesting debates there.

F) first order estimates from physical law.

G) models.

Note I put F and G last because they can really only tell you that you are in the right ballpark.

So Feynman would be very happy that the theory is being investigated from the empirical standpoint. The principle theory ( that C02 blocks IR ) is something that Feynman knew. The principle theory, ( that blocking IR will warm the planet ) is something that Feynman knew. What we dont know so well is HOW MUCH. that number, climate sensitivity, isnt a theory. Its a quantity that must be estimated.

“In addition, you have not been able to state how it could be falsified (Popper)

1. You dont falsify the estimate of a parameter. Let me give you an example. The gravatational constant. This number is not something you falsify it is something you estimate or measure. The climate sensitivity is a parameter. basically if you increase forcing by 1 watt how much warmer does the earth get. That’s a constant NOT a hypothesis or a theory. The AGW Theory, which is really just a collection of science, uses this parameter.

2. You can use the parameter to create a hypothesis.
If you double C02 , then the world will respond by warming between 1.5C and 6C. This hypothesis is testable. We are testing it NOW, we are slowly but surely doubling C02. This passes the “falsifiable” principle. “Falsifiablity” refers to the feature of having observable consequences. Nothing more. Popper and those in his school of thought ( which itself was not falsifiable ) were concerned about separating science from metaphysics. Metaphysical “theories” have no observational consequences. Let’s take a old metaphysics. Reality consists of absolute ideals. Nice idea. Too bad there are no observations that count for it or against it.

3. You could falsify the science by going to the TOA measuring outgoing IR. If you saw that C02 did not block IR, then key tenets of the science would be undermined.

However you want to construe the science it is testable. we are testing it now. The key parameter, sensitivity, is estimate from several lines of empirical evidence. Nobody is reading tarot cards.

Comment on ‘Pause’ : Waving the Italian Flag by steven mosher

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Joshua.

“You honestly don’t think that the implication of the “Global warming has stopped” doesn’t imply that GHE theory is invalid?”

Some people have in fact read it as follows.

“saying that it has stopped is admitting it is real to begin with”

So no the statement ” global warming has stopped” does not and cannot imply anything about the theory. People can draw inferences from one statement, but typically they dont draw inferences in a logical or disciplined fashion.

Comment on ‘Pause’ discussion thread: Part II by Ed Forbes

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I find the fight over attribution very funny at times.

I can find a MUCH higher correlation between ice cream sales and crime rates than is shown between temp increases over time and increased co2 concentrations.

And how many would seriously try and ban ice cream because of its “obvious” cause of increased crime?

Needs to be said over and over: Correlation can not prove attribution

Comment on ‘Pause’ : Waving the Italian Flag by BBD

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<blockquote>There is no such thing as a scientiifc consensus.</blockquote> <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_consensus" rel="nofollow">Really? </a> Given the implacable nature of physics, I suspect the existing scientific consensus to be better founded than contrary opinion. The physics of radiative transfer has been exhaustively investigated and described and never shown to be invalid. <blockquote>You cannot produce any empirical evidence that adding CO2 to the atmosphere causes global warming, and you won’t admit that there is no such empirical evidence.</blockquote> Empirical evidence including the increase in OHC, SSTs, GAT and cryospheric shrinkage demonstrates that energy is accumulating in the climate system. Scientists have predicted that GHG forcing resulting from the physics of radiative transfer will cause energetic imbalance for over a century. There comes a point when contrarianism tips over into denial.

Comment on ‘Pause’ : Waving the Italian Flag by Jim Cripwell

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When this thread started, I thought it was the best one our hostess had produced. For myself, I was right. I never dreamed I would learn such an important lesson. I have discussed CAGW with my MP, David McGuinty, who is a lawyer, and he had one argument I could not counter. How could I be right when there was a consensus of the world’s leading scientists that I am wrong.

Now BBD, who I assume considers himself to be a scientist, argued that he was right because a scientific consensus exists. However, he refuses to discuss empirical evidence to support this supposed consensus. Now in the whole history of physics, there has never been an occasion when a scientific consensus emerged, unless there was overwhelming empirical evidence that the physics was correct. It has never happened before.

Our hostess seemed to think she could have a forum where both sides of the debate on CAGW could discuss the issue on a scientific basis. As long as there are scientists who can argue that a scientific consenus exists, with no empirical data to support that consensus, then Dr. Curry’s hopes are going to be dashed. There is absolutely no chance of any proper scientific discourse as long as there are people who claim they are scientists, and who believe that there is such a thing as a scientific consensus with no empirical data to supprt it. That chasm can never be bridged.

Comment on ‘Pause’ : Waving the Italian Flag by BBD

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<blockquote>The cynic (who me??) might think that their agenda was about something other than ‘global warming’ all along.</blockquote> Are you a conspiracy theorist Latimer?

Comment on Coping with deep climate uncertainty by R. Gates

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Apparenlty Lurker does not appreciate dry sarcasm and irony used a method to illustrate the absurdity of someone’s position.

Comment on ‘Pause’ discussion thread: Part II by Bart R

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Latimer Alder | October 18, 2012 at 11:53 am |

There are no GMT observations after 2005 that rise to any rational standard to use for comparison of trends. (Not even Bernoulli’s.)

Up to the end of 2005, what observation we have suggests strongly continuation of the sharp GMT upward spike observed since the 1980′s, if we restrict ourselves just to the weather station improvisations of HadCRU and GISS etc.

If we include all other available evidence, and look to correlations and Physics, we expect that in six years time, when we can make strong claims supported by evidence in HadCRU and GISS, then right now we are in the midst of that same ongoing upward spike.

Part of the problem in this discussion is that there are two or more definitions being used for “pause” ambiguously.

David Rose claims the GMT has stopped rising entirely. Up to 2006, he’s absolutely wrong based on the only source of evidence he cited in his article. Since 2006 is almost a full decade after the start of his claimed pause, more than half of his claimed pause, he’s simply not worth considering.

Judith Curry apparently (it’s hard to pin her down) claims like Muller that there is a pause in the speed at which GMT approaches 0.2C/decade. Well, there’s a chance Curry and Muller are right. However, if they’re right, this pause too started after the end of 2005. The odds they’re right? About one in six. And again, everything in claims of pause are adequately and entirely explained by known physical phenomena understood and set out in the caveats of the IPCC’s last report, mostly aerosols, as Muller’s BEST reports lately suggest. The particulars of how much can be attributed particulates vs ocean circulation? Too little data yet to speculate, and shame on those who show too much confidence when discussing.

The particulars of AGW due CO2E increase? That’s as strongly supported as one could reasonably demand.

Comment on ‘Pause’ : Waving the Italian Flag by BBD

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Now BBD, who I assume considers himself to be a scientist, argued that he was right because a scientific consensus exists. However, he refuses to discuss empirical evidence to support this supposed consensus.

I consider myself to be a rationalist. I did not ‘refuse’ to discuss empirical evidence. Please do not mischaracterise my comments like this. Why should I do such a thing when there is an embarrassment of data demonstrating the accumulation of energy in the climate system? I point to the robust radiative physics providing the mechanism driving this accumulation. I point to the absence of any *empirical evidence* for any other energetically sufficient forcing that could account for the observations.

Comment on Coping with deep climate uncertainty by R. Gates

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Equally as relevant Wagathong, a hammer can’t even be a screwdriver! Stupid hammer!

Comment on Coping with deep climate uncertainty by tempterrain

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Max,

I think you might have meant to say ‘hopefully to increase the uncertainty’ ? Judith can’t be a merchant of doubt unless she has something to peddle.


Comment on ‘Pause’ : Waving the Italian Flag by Chief Hydrologist

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‘The drop in the global ocean heat storage in the later part of 1998 is associated with cooling of the global ocean after the rapid warming of the ocean during the 1997–98 El Niño event (Willis et al. 2004).’

Rapid warming during the 1997/98 El Nino and then cooling as the La Nina emerged later in the year. Read wider and don’t just make it up.

Comment on ‘Pause’ : Waving the Italian Flag by Vaughan Pratt

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Does anyone besides <a href="http://www.worldacademicunion.com/journal/jus/jusVol02No3paper05.pdf" rel="nofollow">Elart von Collani</a> have anything of mathematical significance to say about so-called "Bernoulli space"? Gauss was von Collani's great-great-great-great-great-great-grand-advisor (work up eight steps from <a href="http://www.genealogy.math.ndsu.nodak.edu/id.php?id=26247" rel="nofollow">here</a>) so if that's any indication there may well be something to this novel idea of a Bernoulli space. However within half a dozen years of Einstein's introduction of his theory of special relativity there were at least a dozen physicists able to explain it. In the half-dozen or so years since von Collani introduced Bernoulli spaces, has there been even one single person besides him and his two students since 2000 who could explain what a Bernoulli space is? This is not to say that it's a bad idea, but only that it doesn't seem to have caught on yet. If it ever does catch on I'll be very interested in following up on it.

Comment on ‘Pause’ : Waving the Italian Flag by Jim D

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Rapid surface warming (El Nino) leads to the ocean heat content loss in an obvious way, without having to have a La Nina. El Nino comes with its own cooling phase which happens to be radiative restoration towards the equilibrium state. The Planck Response in action.

Comment on Coping with deep climate uncertainty by tempterrain

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investment under conditions of deep uncertainty are well understood by venture capitalists

Ms Judith may not understand it but Dr Curry understands it well enough. When she was in charge she explained it all very well:

if the risk is great, then it may be worth acting against even if its probability is small. Think of risk as the product of consequences and likelihood: what can happen and the odds of it happening. A 10-degree rise in global temperatures by 2100 is not likely; the panel gives it a 3 percent probability. Such low-probability, high-impact risks are routinely factored into any analysis and management strategy, whether on Wall Street or at the Pentagon

She might also have said that the risk of a 6 degree rise is 16.6%.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/10/10/AR2007101002157.html?hpid=opinionsbox1

Comment on ‘Pause’ : Waving the Italian Flag by vrpratt

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CH, do your “stadium waves” have anything to do with Rossby waves? A couple of weeks ago you mentioned the former in the context of the latter but didn’t go into details. Please clarify.

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