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Comment on Tamsin on scientists and policy advocacy by Pekka Pirilä

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I have expressed more or less identical views as Tamsin Edwards here. Joshua made the same question to me:

Is there evidence that the loss of trust has been important enough or is it rather true that only very few people have changed their mind.?

The question is a relevant one. It’s relevant to ask, whether Stephen Schneider was right when he discussed the choice between advocacy and presenting science only in strictly scientific manner with all caveats and uncertainties, and when he leaned towards advocacy.

I have not changed my mind. I do still agree with the views expressed by Tamsin Edwards. I believe that strong advocacy may be more effective over short term but much less effective in the long run, and the climate issue is really “long run”. Science must be kept separate from advocacy and scientists must stick to the rules of science as long as they don’t tell explicitly that what they tell next is personal views that they cannot fully support by science.

We need moderate scientists in public, those who try to explain the whole range of views held by scientists, and also why they disagree with skeptics, whose views don’t fall in that range. Lengthy presentations don’t reach wide audiences but we have seen scientists who write successfully on those lines. We have also seen some science journalists who describe successfully the controversies. (My judgement of who has succeeded in that is dependent on my own views on the same issues, but I do believe that some of these writers are judged similarly by many.)

The public cannot learn to understand science, what it can provide and what not, without the help of scientists and the best science journalists. They must keep on fighting the misleading influence of activists of all sides, and also that of badly written science news and other bad science journalism.


Comment on Tamsin on scientists and policy advocacy by Peter Lang

Comment on Tamsin on scientists and policy advocacy by WebHubTelescope (@WHUT)

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OK, It looks like we have finally “taught” the Chief that the combustion of CO2 is not responsible for most of the warming properties of CO2. This has taken several years, as he has repeatedly claimed, like Philip Hadda that any warming is caused by the combustion temperature of the fossil fuels.

It is easy enough to Google what Chief has said in the past

http://judithcurry.com/2012/06/05/sea-level-rise-discussion-thread/#comment-207470
“With additional CO2 in the atmosphere the troposheric temperature increases and I have been wondering for some time why there should be a ‘lag’ in warming as these molecules are emitted at hundreds to thousands of degrees.”

http://judithcurry.com/2012/11/17/week-in-review-111712/#comment-271198
“It is obviously true that CO2 is emitted at high temperature. He should try sticking his face in an exhasut emission if he doesn’t believe me. The atmosphere is almost immediatey warmer – and is maintained in the higher energy state by the through flow of energy. “

And those are the old ones, he has kept this belief up even recently:

Chief Hydrologist | March 31, 2013 at 7:24 pm |

The rate of change is signifiant -

greenhouse gases – 0.04 W/m^2
heat from combustion – 0.04 W/m^2
geothermal – 0.03 W/m^2
black carbon – plus ?
land use – minus ?
sulphides – 0.1 W/m^2
clouds – plus and minus lots
volcanoes – occasionally minus lots
etc

It means that there is sufficent heat to warm the atmosphere initially – which causes solar energy to accumulate in the oceans over time – which means that the total energy in the system increases over a period due to thermal inertia.

and then to be on the safe side, he adopts his SockPuppet handle of Skippy to reinforce this belief:


Skippy | March 16, 2013 at 7:51 pm |

We are talking about diferentials. The heat from combustion is approximately sufficient to warm the atmosphere to the new higher greenhouse gas equilibrium. At this higher temperature the emmission of IR at toa is as before the increase in gases and temperature – all else being equal. Apart from increased photon scattering in the atmosphere.

This just goes to show that one can eventually teach these deniers about basic physics and that it will eventually sink in, using Chief as an example. Our work is not in vain, as this has a multiplicative effect.

Comment on Tamsin on scientists and policy advocacy by WebHubTelescope (@WHUT)

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I take that back, Chief is still screwing up the math: <blockquote>" Chief Hydrologist | August 1, 2013 at 2:54 am | It’s about 0.03 W/m^2/yr – Mike – an about the same from radiative decay in the Earth’s mantle. "</blockquote> The combustive heating power is not increasing at the rate the Chief is asserting. This is currently at 0.03 W/m^2, not 0.03 W/m^2 <b>per year</b>, as he has written. It is only slowly increasing from this 0.03 value as humans gradually burn more fossil fuels every year. Like I said, it takes time to educate the deniers. Give the Chief a few more years and he will get the math right. I thinks he has the underlying concept right and at least trying to educate Haddad and Flynn, which is a good first step. That's why I said relentless education has a multiplicative effect. Get more people to understand the fundamentals and they can spread the teaching load.

Comment on Tamsin on scientists and policy advocacy by Pekka Pirilä

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What we need is a right compromise. Scientists should contribute to decision making but they should do it keeping to the standards of science – or alternatively tell that they are not acting as scientists.

Another important point is that scientists should not imply that they are specialists on questions they have not studied. They should understand that that particular fact which they may know very well may be far less important for rational decision making than they intuitively think when they have spent years on that issue.

Comment on Tamsin on scientists and policy advocacy by plazaeme

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It would be central if you are going to base a policy on … trust.

Comment on Tamsin on scientists and policy advocacy by neilfutureboy

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The problem with advocacy is only when it is wrong, or at least goes further than a scientific respect for the facts can carry it. Nobody suggests science lost trust because Salk advocated the widespread adoption of polio vaccine, quite the opposite. Because he was clearly right.

It is those who promote anti-scientific scares in the name of “science” who are unfortunately damaging the brand they have misappropriated. Real scientists should say so.

Comment on Tamsin on scientists and policy advocacy by Richard Drake

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Hit nail on head – or on hat, whichever you prefer.


Comment on Tamsin on scientists and policy advocacy by GregS

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“a belief that environmental activism has influenced how scientists gather and interpret evidence.”

Or how scientists present the evidence.

Hint to Mann: if your graph begins with proxy data on the left, make sure it ends with proxy data on the right.

Hint to Marcott: double-check your graphs. Make sure they begin and end with the same time-scale.

Hint to all climate scientists: environmental journalism has so tainted public opinion that your credibility as a scientist has an inverse relationship to the amount of press you receive.

Hint to everyone: advocacy is useful but highly toxic. Avoid repeated exposure, never use without reading the label and always dispose of properly to avoid toxic build-up.

Comment on Tamsin on scientists and policy advocacy by Chief Hydrologist

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Oh webby you are an utter twit. You went searching for me trying to explain to you the difference between initial states and ongoing energy dynamics in the atmosphere?

The usual story is that CO2 warms as result of IR in the atmosphere up to a temperature where radiative flux at toa is restored. The innocent question I asked is do these molecules warm up or cool down to the new higher temperature. The simple answer is that they are emitted at up to 1000′s of degrees and cool down to the new energy state.

It matters little in the longer term because the higher energy state is maintained as a result of a reduction of the mean free IR photon path.

I have changed nothing – but you lack the honesty and curiosity – and quite frankly smarts – to challenge your own quite misguided, simplistic and unscientific memes.

Comment on Tamsin on scientists and policy advocacy by Latimer Alder

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@plazame

‘It would be central if you are going to base a policy on … trust’

You think any policy enacted today wouldn’t be?

It’s ‘trust’ all the way through. Because there is no evidence that the models on which everything is based are any good at all. You don’t need a policy at all unless you foresee unhappy consequences. And those consequences only exist as the output of models.

Comment on Tamsin on scientists and policy advocacy by WebHubTelescope (@WHUT)

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” David in Cal | August 1, 2013 at 12:05 am | Reply

As an actuary, I’m in favor of scientists’ providing probabilities. The trouble is there’s no analytic way to calculate probabilities”

Unfortunately, actuaries are not scientists and you are proving that with your rather ignorant assertion. Diffusive flow of material is completely based on probabilistic (also known as stochastic) math.

I can analytically calculate the probability of a particle diffusing a certain distance within a certain time based on the diffusion coefficient of that particle.

This basic stochastic math is what has allowed physicists and engineers design the semiconductor devices that run the computers you are typing on.

So your problem is likely one of not understanding the difference between subjective probabilities (due to a person’s belief uncertainty) and the more objective systemic (e.g. due to measurement error or statistical error) probabilities and aleatory (e.g. due to uncertainty of natural processes, such as diffusion) probabilities.

A significant problem with most people discussing the science is that they conflate the various kinds of uncertainties, thus making a mishmash of arguments that they are trying to pursue.

There are certainly ways to objectively estimate the effects of known processes on the environment given that the objective forms of uncertainty (systemic and aleatory) are applied. The subjective forms of probability are obviously based more on human beliefs, but even these can be improved based on rules such as updating subjective probabilities based on Bayesian reasoning.

You ought to read up on the plight of the clever statistician Nate Silver
“Nate Silver Didn’t Fit In at the New York Times Because He Believed in the Real World”

Get this: Silver moved from the NY Times to ESPN, because sports people understand probabilities better than just about anyone. He will still be able to write about whatever he wants. Silver isn’t perfect however, as there are arguments in his recent book “Signals and Noise” that show that he is not as much of an expert of the aleatory uncertainty that rules science, but in terms of subjective and systemic uncertainties, he has a very good grasp at the numbers.

Since David in Cal is an actuary, I assume he too has at least been educated in systemic and subjective uncertainties, but actuarial science is not physics and so the often-times calculable aleatory uncertainties are likely given short shrift.

Comment on Tamsin on scientists and policy advocacy by Don

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Food not Fuel: Europe burns enough food in our cars as bio-fuels to feed over 100 million people every year. We want to end this madness. This Autumn members of the European parliament will vote on proposals to limit the amount of food burnt as bio-fuels in European cars.

So who thought it was good idea to divert the Earth’s resources in this way, Scientists of Policy Makers?

Comment on Tamsin on scientists and policy advocacy by donfjr09

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Sorry, should have linked this to an Action Aid article: actionaid.org.uk/foodnot fuel

Comment on Tamsin on scientists and policy advocacy by Chief Hydrologist

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Yes and thanks for correcting my typo – I was thinking about the increase in forcing from greenhouse gases. About 0.04W/m^2/yr.


Comment on Tamsin on scientists and policy advocacy by WebHubTelescope (@WHUT)

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<blockquote>" You went searching for me trying to explain to you the difference between initial states and ongoing energy dynamics in the atmosphere?"</blockquote> Chief, you do understand that I was involved in your ongoing education process and I knew what I wrote in the past and so didn't have to search for you and your rather inflated ego. Again your original problem was that you and other deniers like Haddad and Flynn believed that the ~0.03 W/m^2 combustive heating accumulated from year to year. You, the Chief Hydrologist, still made this mistake when you wrote 0.03 W/m^2/yr just today. Note that this means that you believe that the combustive heat is <b>accumulating</b> at a rate of 0.03 W/m^2 <b>per year</b>. So now you are compounding your web of lies by denying that you still can't get the math right. I am not the one that wrote "0.03 W/m^2/yr ", that was you, and you can't edit out your demonstration of incompetent math. So go ahead and keep calling me an "utter twit". It is all projection on your part. You continue to believe that you can compete with real physicists that know how to do the math, and we can all see that is obviously not the case.

Comment on Tamsin on scientists and policy advocacy by WebHubTelescope (@WHUT)

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Willard, in his usual concise manner, points out the effectiveness of stealth advocacy.

I rarely find fault with anything Professor Curry says. However, I am forever battling all the commenters that generate misdirection and FUD on this site.

Is that also not a form of stealth advocacy to condone what commenters say, no matter how bizarre? (see the FUD-fueled beliefs of Haddad, Flynn, and Chief at the top of this commenting thread) I guess the working definition of a “CE denizen” is a stealthy “advocacy proxy”.

Comment on On confusing expertise and objectivity by David William

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Hi
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Please let me know your thoughts. Waiting for your positive.
Thanks
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Comment on On confusing expertise and objectivity by WebHubTelescope (@WHUT)

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“rob bradley | August 1, 2013 at 7:17 pm”

Speaking of expertise and objectivity, everything that this guy Rob Bradley says is very important and worthy of consideration.

After all, he was one of the “Smartest Guys in the Room”

Wikipedia –
“Bradley spent nearly 20 years in the business world, including 16 years at Enron, where for the last seven years he was corporate director for public policy analysis and speechwriter for Kenneth L. Lay.”

“What caused California’s energy crisis back in 2000-2001? Deregulation? Too many hands on the AC switch? What about “creativity” by Enron employees? On Jan. 17, 2001, amid rolling blackouts, a fellow at the energy-trading firm told a power plant worker to “get a little creative” and find a reason to shut down, tightening electricity supply. “OK, so we’re just coming down for some maintenance, like a forced outage type thing?” the worker offered. “I knew I could count on you,” his colleague replied on a tape revealed in a lawsuit. California’s grid eventually stabilized, but Enron itself blinked out — under hefty fines and criminal charges.
http://xfinity.comcast.net/slideshow/news-thinking/10/

Irony tends to go over the heads of the 3%

Comment on On confusing expertise and objectivity by Pointman

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