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Comment on Week in review by maksimovich

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It is not mathematics either, there is not always a solid proof of a hypothesis, just a comparison with others that try to explain the same thing in a different way.

The fluid equations are not fundamental equations they are phenomenological,limiting the experiments to heuristic arguments.That they are also infinite is now well described in the literature,which allows for legitimate arguments, such as

i) are they solvable?.
ii) can we enumerate the program ie write a program with sufficient resolution to describe climate?


Comment on Week in review by David Wojick

Comment on Week in review by Jim D

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willb, I mean the use of the term “natural phenomena” as a generic thing that is an alternative to CO2 doing anything, as in the Jim Cripwell usage. If you want to be specific about phenomena, fine. There is a lot of data to test various phenomena by, and it is growing, but just saying “natural phenomena” may cause all the warming without any specifics or evidence is plain annoying.

Comment on Week in review by manacker

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Jim D

You ask specific questions.

Let me respond with specific answers.

where do you draw the line for “natural phenomena” as an alternative “explanation”.

Over most of our planet’s history, the significant swings in its climate have been caused by “natural phenomena”. As a result, this is the “null hypothesis” of climate change.

Does it have to be an “explanation” first or just a word for “I don’t know” but not CO2. That’s what I am complaining about. It is like saying “it can’t be CO2, but I don’t know what else it could be either.” This is just lazy denialist talk, the way it comes across.

It is simply a statement of the “null hypothesis”: climate changes as a result of natural phenomena.

Could CO2 also be a factor? Why not? We just do not know enough to be able to say for sure that CO2 has been a significant factor in the past or will be a significant one in the future.

Paleo data (to be taken with a grain of salt) tell us that the Ordovician “ice-ball Earth” period occurred when atmospheric CO2 levels were at several thousand ppmv.

Earlier warm and cold periods since historical times have all occurred without any significant change in CO2 levels.

We see that there was a mid-20thC period of cooling despite increasing post-WWII CO2 emissions and rapidly rising concentrations.

We see that there has been a current lull in warming despite unabated CO2 emissions and concentrations reaching record levels.

These observations raise some doubt regarding the “CO2 control knob” hypothesis. But, yes, CO2 could be a factor – or it might not be a significant one. We just don’t know, Jim.

And that’s not “lazy denialist talk”.

Max

Comment on Week in review by Jim D

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maksimovich, yes, the fluid equations are well known and potentially solvable to any accuracy you want by numerical means. Climate is a lot more than fluid equations, however. There’s physics too: thermodynamics, radiation, variable forcing, etc.

Comment on Week in review by angech

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David Springer thanks for the 2 bits of clarfying information on the sublimation and the pressure effects. As said attempts to explain missing mountains of ice [by volume] in the Antarctic are woefully inadequate and suggest GRACE
measurements are interpreted wrongly.
This is one of the tipping points to get climate science back on track.

Comment on Week in review by Jim D

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manacker, I am only going to answer with, once CO2 was natural phenomena too, and that was when the volcanoes produced it in large enough amounts to change the climate. Now that Man produces it, some skeptics are blind to it and looking elsewhere for their “natural phenomena”. They need to be consistent, otherwise it looks like some kind of prejudice.

Comment on Week in review by Peter Lang

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Wind is relatively cheap

That statement is incorrect. As I have said many times you do not understand what you are reading.


Comment on Week in review by JCH

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Assuming that somehow, enough heat has by passed the surface sensors to reach the abyssal depths …

This is wrong. Josh Willis plainly said ARGO sensors are not programmed to try and detect heat moving from layer to layer.

So it did not “somehow…bypass surface sensors. He said the answer can probably be found in the data if somebody does the work. To the sensible it would be a complete and utter waste of time. To the politically motivated, they have no interest in finding an answer they do not want to find. That would be bad politics.

Comment on Mail on BEST by france-expatries.com

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I am curious to find out what blog platform you happen to be using?
I’m experiencing some small security problems with my latest website and I’d like to find
something more safe. Do you have any solutions?

Comment on Week in review by JCH

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Lol. In general the Fed loans money to people who have a very good record of paying the money back.

The general public has a very spotty record.

And Baer was not a lone voice of sanity. She was often a bloomin’ idiot.

Comment on The Fundamental Uncertainties of Climate Change by Walt Allensworth

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Peter – I’ve noticed the same thing, and it’s pretty annoying.

Comment on The Fundamental Uncertainties of Climate Change by Walt Allensworth

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Ghads. Methinks the whole referencing system in the blog is hosed up… i.e. broken. I have hit reply to posts only to have them appear elsewhere… and when you don’t repeat or reference the original post it’s loses all context.

Comment on The Fundamental Uncertainties of Climate Change by JCR

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Because once people find out you’ve lied to them, no matter how noble your cause, they will never believe you again, even when you are telling the truth.

Comment on Week in review by maksimovich

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<i> Assuming that somehow, enough heat has by passed the surface sensors to reach the abyssal depths and raise the temperature</i> Changes in the abyssal depths (without accompanying changes above) are a result of dissipation from braking friction from wind stress.The kinetic energy is transferred ballistically and not by diffusion.

Comment on Week in review by R. Gates, Skeptical Warmist

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Tony said:

“climatereason | January 13, 2014 at 2:58 pm |
R Gates

Good. Now you can answer this with specific amounts;.

http://judithcurry.com/2014/01/10/week-in-review-11/#comment-436289
tonyb

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As I said before when you asked, I am far from an expert on latent and sensible heat from the Gulf Stream, so you’ll need to do your own further research Tony. I know that there are many excellent research papers on this interesting topic.

Comment on Week in review by Tonyb

Comment on Week in review by R. Gates, Skeptical Warmist

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“This is wrong. Josh Willis plainly said ARGO sensors are not programmed to try and detect heat moving from layer to layer.

So it did not “somehow…bypass surface sensors.”
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This is actually dynamically wrong-thinking. You’d might as well try and measure how much heat your jacket in the winter is “forcing” into your body. Answer: none. The atmosphere is not forcing net heat or energy into the ocean, so there is nothing to “bypass” sensors with. The net flow is always OUT, by a wide margin varies naturally according to ENSO, PDO, and AMO on the short-term, and GH gas concentrations over the longer-term.

Comment on Week in review by Tonyb

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Rgates

Wait a minute here. It’s YOU who get so worried about the supposed heat that might be fractionally warming the abyssal depths. If you are so worried it must be because you believe the heat stored is going to have a serious Impact on the surface temperatures

Are you saying you don’t know the impact, if any? If so, why do you get so worried.

Tonyb

Comment on Week in review by R. Gates, Skeptical Warmist

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Tony asked:

“Assuming that somehow, enough heat has by passed the surface sensors to reach the abyssal depths and raise the temperature down there by 0.1C, how much will that warm the atmosphere?”
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You’re asking me to go back and do math that I’ve not done since my college days. To answer it accurately, you’d need to be more specific in your question—what part of the ocean is .1C warmer? (from what depth to what depth). We need to know what volume of water you’re asking about. In general though, such as large increase in ocean temps over the whole ocean volume would be equal to many tens of degrees of warming in the troposphere if somehow all released at once (which of course it never would be). In terms of energy, it would be the equivalent of over 100 x 10^22 Joules of energy.

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