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Comment on Tracking the line between treatment and diagnosis by manacker

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Any good medical doctor will tell you that you should not start treatment until you have a good diagnosis.

If the treatment is a radical one, such as risky surgery, you should have several alternate opinions before starting.

We are still in the very early phase with our planet’s climate.

We have seen some cyclical warming/cooling trends on a slightly tilted axis, which do not correlate well with CO2 trends over the same period.

Despite IPCC claims to the contrary, we really do not yet have an earthly notion what the root cause of the observed warming has been or, even less, whether or not it will continue and, if so, at what rate.

So, in effect, we have some hypotheses but no real diagnosis.

Yet a very radical treatment is being proposed based on these hypotheses.

And we are not even so sure that this radical treatment is going to achieve anything.

It doesn’t take a climate scientist or a genius to figure out what to do in this case.

Let’s wait until we have a proper diagnosis with a few alternate opinions and a treatment plan that will cure the problem before we start radical treatment.

Max


Comment on Tracking the line between treatment and diagnosis by Brian H

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Yeah, a lot of people have gotten a lot of mileage ($$) out of it. And are bound and determined to work it for a lot more.

Comment on Tracking the line between treatment and diagnosis by Agnostic

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“Lesson- if you really want to advance scientitic understanging and convince others, you do it by publishing in the journals, not dicking around on a blog playing arm-chair expert.”

Ooo….bad example there Michael. In the case of ulcers, the scientists trying to establish that ulcers were in fact caused by bacteria living in the stomach, something that was thought impossible, we’re resisted heavily by the orthodoxy and their papers were not published until one of the researchers actually infected himself to prove that you could get stomach ulcers from the bacteria. Quite an extreme way for an ulcer ‘heretic’ to make his point against the consensus.

Comment on Climate scenarios: 2015-2050 by Latimer Alder

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@fred moolten

Should I conclude by your lack of a reply to my challenge to demonstrate with practical examples your assertion that:

‘their ability to enhance our understanding of climate variables that are already operating, or have operated in the past, is a different and very useful element of their performance that is probably of more practical utility in the current state of development than attempts to predict the long term future’

has no foundation or supporting evidence?

You found the time to respond to Makismovich, so why the reluctance to share the basis for your opinion on this matter?

Comment on Tracking the line between treatment and diagnosis by ianl8888

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Evasive gobbledook, Jimmy

There are no predictions, just projections of “what if” scenarios, guessworked on unknowm thresholds of dynamic. non-linear and competing factors

“Internal variations” of what forcings ?

You’ve done very well … I won’t pursue this further, it’s pointless

Comment on Climate scenarios: 2015-2050 by Chief Hydrologist

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If the planet was in thermal equilibrium it would not be heating or cooling – the third term in the 1st order differential global energy equation. It is instead in a dynamic disequilibrium – as suggested by the differential term.

Over an undefined period Ein must equal Eout – so while the planet heats and cools and tends to move towards energy equilibria at the top of atmosphere – it cannot be said to be in equilibria at any point in time. Other than fleetingly as the planet transitions from heating to cooling or vice versa. Change is the norm as is shown in the dynamic of energy in and out and ocean heat content in the graphs linked to.

Now, instead of imagining that you have a debating point on global warming twittery – and that old white guys are too stupid to understand – imagine that you have a genuine curiousity and read the rest of the post. I am happy to discuss genuine points – but other than that this is a sidebar discussion between Mike and I on the deluded physchology of warmist zitgits. So kindly bugger off.

Robert I Ellison
Chief Hydrologist

Comment on Keith Seitter on the ‘uncertainty monster’ by Pete Ridley

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I came across this thread after having my attention drawn to an article “In Which Climate ‘Skeptics’ Drop the Lysenko Bomb. No, I’m Not Kidding….” (http://www.desmogblog.com/which-climate-skeptics-drop-lysenko-bomb-no-i-m-not-kidding). The articles author, journalist Chris Mooney, is a frequent contributor on Desmogblog, that fount of Catastrophic Anthropogenic Climate Change (CACC) propaganda, where CACC science uncertainty is kept hidden whenever possible. Professor Stephen Schneider must have been delighted when public relations specialist James Hoggan founded it in 2006 and brought together his team of journalists in order to “ .. clear the PR pollution that is clouding the science on climate change. .. ”.

My understanding of Schneider’s “ .. we need to get some broad based support, to capture the public’s imagination. That, of course, entails getting loads of media coverage. So we have to offer up scary scenarios, make simplified, dramatic statements, and make little mention of any doubts we might have .. ” was that scientists are at liberty to make a choice between telling the truth and distorting it for propaganda purposes.

Professor Curry provided an interesting article on this last July (http://judithcurry.com/2011/07/21/stephen-schneider-and-the-%E2%80%9Cdouble-ethical-bind%E2%80%9D-of-climate-change-communication/) I don’t swallow his subsequent attempt to claim that what he had said had been misrepresented (http://stephenschneider.stanford.edu/Publications/PDF_Papers/DetroitNews.pdf) but I’m a “denier” of the CACC hypothesis. I’m inclined to agree with MarkB’s comment on 21st July at 12:54 pm “ .. There is no ‘double ethical bind.’ The only ethical duty is the one your mother gave you: tell the truth! Schneider’s position is the equivalent of prosecutors withholding exculpatory evidence to make sure ‘the bad guys’ are convicted .. ”, echoed by Willis Eschenbach on 22nd at 12:48 am.

Getting back to Keith Seitter and Desmogblog, the discussion about the Wall Street Journal’s op-ed “No Need to Panic About Global Warming” (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204301404577171531838421366.html) involving 16 scepetical scientists/engineers took me to a Union of Concerned Scientists article “Dismal Science at the Wall Street Journal” (http://blog.ucsusa.org/dismal-science-at-the-wall-street-journal). That article recommended that those sceptics get advice from the 18 American science associations who on 21st October 2009 sent a letter to the Senate pushing the merits “ .. the consensus scientific view .. ” of CACC. That sure is a very impressive list of scientific associations, all supporting the “consensus” so it must be sound science – or is it?

Well, I wondered about the areas of expertise and agenda of those who had composed the letter, of the signatories to it and how representative the letter was of the thousands of scientists (and non-scientists) who are members those august bodies. So far I have been unable to find out anything about the authors (can anyone help on that?) but have started looking at each of the signatories.

Alan I. Leshner, PhD, Chief Executive Officer, American Association for the Advancement of Science – Psychiatrist!! (http://www.aaas.org/ScienceTalk/leshner.shtml). On 1st June 2011 psychiatrist Dr. Leshner said “ .. climate change is not a scientifically-controversial topic .. ” (http://www.aaas.org/gr/docs/11-6-01_los_alamitos_usd_climate_science.pdf) so I’ll waste no more time on him.

Thomas H. Lane, PhD, President, American Chemical Society, – Chemist (http://www.spoke.com/info/pWn2iq3/ThomasLane) looked worth checking out but I could find nothing of substance from him regarding his research into the processes and drivers of the different global climates. However, I did find an indication of why the ACS would support the CACC hypothesis. Buried amongst the propaganda about “ .. Robust Climate Science .. ” (http://democrats.energycommerce.house.gov/Press_111/20090610/hr2454_supportpassage.pdf) was “ .. June 5, 2009 .. funding for these activities has dropped dramatically .. we must invest heavily in all aspects of climate science .. ”. That’s enough for me.

Timothy L Grove, PhD, President, American Geophysical Union – geologist (http://web.mit.edu/tlgrove/www/CV.shtml) also has expertise in a relevant discipline but I could only find one paper on climate change which he co-authored (http://www-geodyn.mit.edu/johnson_sulfur_jgr08.pdf ) but it concerns Mars. It seems that his area of expertise is sulphur and its compounds and that he simply toes the “party line” about climate change. There’s an interesting comment about the AGU’s journal JGR “Censorship at AGU: scientists denied the right of reply” (http://scienceandpublicpolicy.org/images/stories/papers/originals/agu_censorship.pdf)

May R Berenbaum, PhD, President, American Institute of Biological Sciences – Ecoloist and Evolutionary Biologist (http://www.life.illinois.edu/entomology/faculty/Berenbaum_vita.pdf) appears to have expertise in insects and plants but not in the processes and drivers of global climates.

Of the first 5 of those signatories only Keith Seitter, PhD. Executive Director, American Meteorological Society – Geophysicist (http://www.ametsoc.org/amsnews/bios/seitter.html) impresses me as someone worth heeding about climate change. Considering what he said in his article discussed here I am surprised that he was prepared to put his signature on that blatant piece of CACC propaganda presented to the US Senate in 2009. I wonder if he actually read it. Then again, it is claimed that he recently said “ .. Research since 2007 has only solidified climate science findings ..” (http://uk.reuters.com/article/2012/02/02/us-climate-weather-idUKTRE81120K20120202) but maybe he is simply hedging his bets.

Best regards, Pete Ridley.

Comment on Tracking the line between treatment and diagnosis by Chief Hydrologist

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Oh no. Now we are in serious s… Kim is channeling Martha.


Comment on Tracking the line between treatment and diagnosis by hunter

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ceteris,
Yes, but my point was clever.
;^)
I do like how you believers ignored the larger point- that the team’s behavior would have gotten them fired in most professional cultures- and ran instead to hide out critiquing a comment about that point.
I think understand why you and so many believers have to avoid issues like that. My heart goes out to you all.
If my guys were caught flat out like the team, and I had a faith that required me to ignore their behavior, I would ignore it as well.

Comment on Tracking the line between treatment and diagnosis by Chief Hydrologist

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I can’t get past my horror at the thought of Kevin (surely it isn’t decadal) Trenberth as my heart surrgeon. Sure Kev – whatever you reckon – I’ll just be leaving now.

Comment on Tracking the line between treatment and diagnosis by Louise

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hunter – the fact that there are some mean guys does not change the science as practised by the very many scientists who are not members of the ‘team’. Ask Bart Verheggen, Isaac Held, Nick Stokes or any of the other non-’team’ members. How come you’re not on their web sites arguing your point?

Comment on Climate scenarios: 2015-2050 by ceteris non paribus

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I am happy to discuss genuine points – but other than that this is a sidebar discussion between Mike and I on the deluded physchology of warmist zitgits. So kindly bugger off.

You are happy to discuss genuine points right up until such time as you detect any criticism of them.

Chief – I detect a little bit of anguish. And the part about the ‘stupid old white guys’ is a great bit of false modesty. It’s a shame you’ve resorted to trying (unsuccessfully, as it happens) to peg my identity politics – this rhetorical tack tends to weaken the more science-like parts of your proclamations.

You and mike should just get a room together. That way you’d be perfectly insulated from my comments – and everything else but each other.

Don’t forget to high-five each other whenever someone doesn’t agree with you.

Comment on Tracking the line between treatment and diagnosis by Anteros

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Joshua -

Ah – so in actual fact you’re quite like a sort of regular person after all..Glad to hear it!

I’m using my imagination with the ‘football’ comparison. It always strikes me as unnecessarily complicated compared to, say, cricket ;)

Comment on Tracking the line between treatment and diagnosis by cui bono

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hehe.
“Let me through, I’m a climate scientist!”.
“Is there a climate scientist on board?”
“Don’t worry, I have plenty of experience with gang Green”.

Comment on Tracking the line between treatment and diagnosis by hunter

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Louise,
Because here I get you and Martha *and* Joshua: a trifecta of believers.
You know, the Trenberth team claim that they are doctors just looking out for our well being and that they just happen to not only have discovered the disease but also happened to find the cure reminded of a movie I bet you would like:


Comment on Tracking the line between treatment and diagnosis by hunter

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Is it not fascinating that the Trenberth team is claiming in effect that we are very fortunate indeed:
He and his pals have discovered, just in the nick of time, buried in the margins of error and barely noticeable, a fatal disease. And not only that, Trenberth and his pals have also discovered the cure for the disease they identified.
Now what are the chances of that?

Comment on Tracking the line between treatment and diagnosis by hunter

Comment on Tracking the line between treatment and diagnosis by ceteris non paribus

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hunter:

I think understand why you and so many believers have to avoid issues like that. My heart goes out to you all.

You think you understand so much about “believers” (we used to call them scientists) that you don’t realize that they are right.

I’ve read about so many “getting caught out”s and “stakes through the heart” and “days of AGW are numbered” that I can no longer keep track of the “whatever”-gate of the day…

Someone should set up a blog… oh, wait.

Comment on Tracking the line between treatment and diagnosis by Don Aitkin

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Michael you seem to think I had welshed at the task of criticisng the Trenberth et al letter, and on re-reading I ought to have said something else, or done the work. So I have done it.

And it is such a pathetic letter!

In what follows I have taken each sentence apart, where there is anything of substance to analyse. I hope that it is straightforward. I had it all nicely arranged with italics and bold, but transferring it to here robbed my text of all that neatness.

Paragraph 1 Do you consult your dentist about your heart condition?

I have dealt with this false premise above, and a dozen or so other posters have done so as well.

Paragraph 2 Sentence 1 The letter by the 16 is ‘the climate-science equivalent of dentists practising cardiology’. Since the premise is false, this conclusion has no merit.

P2 S2 ‘While accomplished in their fields, most of these authors have no expertise in climate science.’

Really? What is ‘climate science’? I would call it a quarry, into which miners bring the skills they have developed in their own disciplines. There were no undergraduate courses in climate science when I surveyed this field in 2008, and few at the graduate level. Virtually no one 40 years or older can have such a degree, and in any case what are the fields of expertise of the 38? This is a bogus argument that collapses as soon as it is inspected.

P2 S3 ‘The few authors who have such expertise are known to have extreme views that are out of step with nearly every other climate expert.’

This is an assertion that comes without evidence of any kind. It is based on the bogus claim that there is a scientific field called ‘climate science’ whose boundaries include the 38 but not most of the 16. No evidence is given.

P2 S4, 5 and 6 These three sentences serve to introduce the implication that the 16 are likely to think that HIV does not cause AIDS, and that smoking does not cause cancer; they are a smear and not worthy of discussion.

P3 S1 ‘Climate scientists know that the long-term warming trend has not abated in the past decade.’

It is wonderful that they know this, because on the evidence the long-term warming trend has levelled out if it has not stopped. Both my statement and the one in italics rely on the inspection of data averages, whose formulation is subject to a large amount of error, some of it non-random. The sentence is more a statement of belief than of fact.

P3 S2 ‘In fact, it was the warmest decade on record.’

This may be true, though I have no faith at all in averages of temperature that are expressed to three decimal places, notwithstanding that there are thousands of observations, for the reasons given above. In any case, since the world seems to have been warming in an irregular way since the Little Ice Age, this statement has little meaning.

P3 S3 ‘And computer models have recently shown that during periods where there is a smaller increase of surface temperatures, warming is occurring elsewhere in the climate system, typically in the deep ocean.’

And what observations support these model predictions? None is mentioned.

P3 S4 ‘Such periods are a relatively common climate phenomenon…’

Mr Trenberth appears to be having his cake, and eating it as well.

P4 S1 and 2 ‘…what one of us, Mr Trenberth, actually meant…’

I guess most of us have read the ‘travesty’ remark. He is entitled to say what he thinks it meant. I would have to say that the ordinary reading — that it is an embarrassment to the Team that the world is not warming as it should — is clearer and more obvious.

P 5 S 1, 2 and 3 ‘The National Academy of Science (set up by President Abraham Lincoln) … and many learned academies all tell us that ‘the science is clear’.

Wow! What a wise old bird Lincoln really was. This is the argument from authority with a century and half of wisdom behind it. Trust us: we speak with all this contemporary authority, and President Lincoln’s as well.

P6 S1 ‘Research shows that more than 97% of scientists actively publishing in the field agree that climate change is real and human caused.’

Now which research would that be? What did they agree to? Who asked them? How was the question phrased? Asking people questions in surveys is one of my fields of research, and it’s a new figure to me. I understand that Lawrence Solomon, who likes to follow these things up believes (and I quote him) that it

‘stems from a 2008 master’s thesis by student Maggie Kendall Zimmerman at the University of Illinois, under the guidance of Peter Doran, an associate professor of Earth and environmental sciences. The two researchers obtained their results by conducting a survey of 10,257 Earth scientists. The survey results must have deeply disappointed the researchers — in the end, they chose to highlight the views of a subgroup of just 77 scientists, 75 of whom thought humans contributed to climate change. The ratio 75/77 produces the 97% figure that pundits now tout.’

You can read the rest in his column in the Financial Post. I really love ‘research shows’ with no mention of which research we are talking about. Perhaps Solomon got it wrong, and it comes from some gold-standard PhD thesis from Yale. Be nice to be able to study it.

P6 S2, 3 and 4 Let me partly paraphrase the concluding flourish. The Republicans would be reckless to ‘ ignore the enormous risks that climate change clearly poses’. And shifting to a low-carbon economy ‘could drive decades of economic growth’. Finally, we return to the beginning: ‘Just what the doctor ordered.’

If I compare the two letters, that of the 16 is much more measured and cool. The response is, as I said at the beginning, is pathetic, and weakens my already shaky confidence in the truth of anything the Team members say.

Of course, my own bias could affect my reading of the two. So I would welcome correction where I am in error, and debate where there is more that I could have said.

Comment on Tracking the line between treatment and diagnosis by Rob Starkey

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Martha

I largely agree with you on this point. Imo the problem is the reluctance of people to be willing to address the specific suggested actions that they think make sense to address the perceived issue or problem. The question is or at least should be what specific actions you wish a specific country to implement. What will the proposed accomplish, and what will they cost.

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