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Comment on Model structural uncertainty – are GCMs the best tools? by Peter Lang

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Judith asks:

Rarely are the following questions asked: Is the approach that we are taking to climate modeling adequate? Could other model structural forms be more useful for advancing climate science and informing policy?

I suggest the questions need to be asked by the economists and policy analysts, not the scientists. The scientists need to provide the information needed by policy analysts if they want “action”, which means policy.

Questions the IAMs (and improved IAMs), and robust decision making, need answers to are the following (pdfs needed for each):
• Time to the next abrupt climate change
• Direction of the next abrupt climate change (i.e. warming or cooling)
• Magnitude of the abrupt change
• Duration of the abrupt change and distribution of the rate of change over time
• Impacts of abrupt changes by rate of change, by magnitude of change and by region
• Economic costs and benefits of abrupt changes by rate of change, by magnitude of change and by region.

Those are the questions I want to see (believable) answers to.


Comment on Model structural uncertainty – are GCMs the best tools? by Paul Matthews

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Congrats Jim D, you’ve successfully disrupted another Climate etc thread with irrelevant, off-topic and pointless bickering about temperature trends.

Comment on Uneasy expertise by Faustino

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Beth, there’s an Aldi opening a couple of blocks from me in six days time, offering a Kindle-type device for $A35. Perhaps that’s within serf-range, even if you have to extend your days toiling in the field from 12 to 14 hours.

(Drafted hours ago but couldn’t post.)

Comment on Uneasy expertise by beththeserf

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Think of the chilling scene in Orwell’s 1984 where, in the
distopia of Oceana, at the Ministery of Truth, the records
are shredded and cast down the memory hole so that
myth may prevail. Life with no record, let’s clean-slate
into a fuchur without regret, without memory. Say …
nothing ter compare to, as though new-born, and jest
as unaware!

(Serfs hate that.)

http://beththeserf.wordpress.com/2013/09/08/268/

Comment on Uneasy expertise by beththeserf

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Thx Faustino, a coupla’ days toiling in the turnip fields should
do it. Thank heavens fer division of labor benefits ter allow
even serfs the life enhancing consequences of technologee.
bts

Comment on Steven Hayward: Conservatism and Climate Science by Raving

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A. Lacis- Don’t worry folks, when that decadal cooling phase of the natural variability component switches signs, the accumulated global warming will be sure to make its presence felt.

Glecker et al (2006) Krakatoa lives … Fig 1c (blue line VOLC) suggests a century or longer residency for ‘natural variability’. … Your models. Your settled science …. And seemingly so far off kilter to your earlier predictions as to raise fearful doubts and concern.

Sorry but its your models by your experts indicating a 100+ year latency in the ocean. I don’t know who to trust any more, quite frankly

http://www.image.ucar.edu/idag/Papers/Gleckler_Krakatoa.pdf

Comment on Model structural uncertainty – are GCMs the best tools? by JCH

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The “pause” is dying, which means it is your cause that is dying. We will likely be back to the highest rate, .17C per decade, this year. The public is not going to like the deception of “global warming has stopped” one bit.

Comment on Model structural uncertainty – are GCMs the best tools? by Raving

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Must be in code. Couldn’t find them either


Comment on Model structural uncertainty – are GCMs the best tools? by OAS

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There can be confusion over what randomness in dynamic climate models might entail. This reflects understanding of what randomness and probability mean, affected possibly by pop accounts of the difficulties of interpreting quantum mechanics. The way classical probability is set up means it can be viewed as determinism plus lack of specific information about the deterministic processes involved. Uncertainty created by such lack of detail (eg undetermined variables) is then represented by probabilities. This description seems to fit climate modeling well. The use of random dynamics need not imply any deeper philosophical concept of ‘God playing dice’ with climate. That is a different concept of probability.

Comment on Model structural uncertainty – are GCMs the best tools? by phatboy

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You can’t fight illusions with illusions

Comment on Model structural uncertainty – are GCMs the best tools? by beththeserf

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I am not playin’ the prisoner’s dilemma, Faustino )

Comment on Model structural uncertainty – are GCMs the best tools? by Jim D

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Paul Matthews, I only raised it because of the “two decades” comment in the main post. Otherwise I would have thought the seeming pause irrelevant to GCM discussions too. It wasn’t me that raised the “pause” first, but it was a response to its mention. Some want to throw away GCMs because they perceive this variation that they expected GCMs to show. I say this is misguided thinking, to say the least. The pause has had absolutely no effect on the 30-year climate trend, and you have to wonder why that is, and what properties of a pause lead to that.

Comment on Uneasy expertise by Michael

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That’s ‘skepticism’ for you.

61% say that the Earth is warming.

The 54% claim is a bit of a fudge.

Comment on Model structural uncertainty – are GCMs the best tools? by Fernando Leanme

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Mr telescope, does the sloshing model have coupling to the atmosphere so you can account for the weakening and reversal of the prevailing wind?

Comment on Uneasy expertise by Alistair Riddoch

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Michael,

Ay yi yi, the limitations of the written word.

I hope we agree. Back and forths can get tiresome.

Is this what we agree on…
Renewables will get cheaper.
Better to implement them once they have been optimized close to perfection, when the cost per, will be much lower.
Early implementation instead of increased research spending is not the smartest path to use.
Once we have a good efficient method of solar energy collection, IF it is one of the smarter/efficient/not stupidly expensive ways to produce energy, we should implement lots and lots at that time, if CO2 is still considered to be a climate changer by the majority.


Comment on Uneasy expertise by Alistair Riddoch

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RLS + visit to gravitgy wave facility = lucky :-)

Comment on Uneasy expertise by Alistair Riddoch

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Michael, we seem to be butting heads a little. sorry.

Rob – ” what is the source of information that makes you believe these negative consequences might or are likely to occur and when?” – Rob.
Michael – Physics

hmmmm, “physics” as proof of CO2 causality….Evidence-free assertion?

you should read about the heliopause, it’s size, rate of travel, and the density of matter outside and inside of it. (38,000,000,000 km diameter, rate of travel is 26 km/s, and density/energy/magnetism content outside is 40 times that of inside. and we are flying through a magnetic cloud, that could be prone to variations in density, affected by the other stars in the local interstellar cloud.

then consider whether that is likely related to the 30-40 year oscillations in solar output. and then check the relation of solar output to temperature (maunder and dalton minimums). then consider the thames NOT freezing since the early 1800′s (dalton minimum), the great lakes and Niagara falls almost totally freezing over this winter (rare since the 70′s), the current low solar output per graphs and charts at http://www.solen.info, especially the charts that compare past minimums to current solar output.

http://solen.info/solar/images/comparison_similar_cycles.png

I’m thinking physics gonna come down heavy on the warmists, and back up the notion of natural variability nicely for us incorrectly labelled “climate deniers”.

Comment on Model structural uncertainty – are GCMs the best tools? by lolwot

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Yet Hansen predicted the warming back in the 80s.

To my mind no-one else predicted the world would warm.

Comment on Model structural uncertainty – are GCMs the best tools? by lolwot

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Yes amazing isn't it, since 1998 the rate of warming has actually increased, but they call that a "pause". I would call it shonky statistics but I don't think it's even statistics. Here's what they've done. <a href="http://www.woodfortrees.org/plot/gistemp/from:1970/to:2010.42/trend/plot/gistemp/from:1970/to:1998/trend/plot/gistemp/from:1968/to:2000/mean:48/plot/gistemp/from:1968/mean:48/plot/gistemp/from:2002/trend" rel="nofollow">they've taken a short period of data that starts far above the trend-line and moves back to the trend line, and called it a change in behavior.</a>.

Comment on Model structural uncertainty – are GCMs the best tools? by Jonathan Abbott

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AK and Berenyi, thanks for the links.

So it appears the ITCZ shifts north/south and the balance of albedo between the hemispheres is maintained. There doesn’t seem to be a clear mechanism, but presumably the symmetry in albedo is merely a result of the process, not a driver which I assume would relate to heat energy?

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