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Comment on Week in review by Pekka Pirilä

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Koonin spends too much space in listing uncertainties of climate science. By that he creates an impression that I do not consider rightly balanced.

I do, however, largely agree with his concluding paragraphs:

Society’s choices in the years ahead will necessarily be based on uncertain knowledge of future climates. That uncertainty need not be an excuse for inaction. There is well-justified prudence in accelerating the development of low-emissions technologies and in cost-effective energy-efficiency measures.

But climate strategies beyond such “no regrets” efforts carry costs, risks and questions of effectiveness, so nonscientific factors inevitably enter the decision. These include our tolerance for risk and the priorities that we assign to economic development, poverty reduction, environmental quality, and intergenerational and geographical equity.

Individuals and countries can legitimately disagree about these matters, so the discussion should not be about “believing” or “denying” the science. Despite the statements of numerous scientific societies, the scientific community cannot claim any special expertise in addressing issues related to humanity’s deepest goals and values. The political and diplomatic spheres are best suited to debating and resolving such questions, and misrepresenting the current state of climate science does nothing to advance that effort.

Any serious discussion of the changing climate must begin by acknowledging not only the scientific certainties but also the uncertainties, especially in projecting the future. Recognizing those limits, rather than ignoring them, will lead to a more sober and ultimately more productive discussion of climate change and climate policies. To do otherwise is a great disservice to climate science itself.

Even, if all the above is accepted and understood, I would expect that people continue to disagree strongly on the climate policy. There’s nothing here that is contradictory to requirements for strong immediate decisions, but what he writes explains, why people need not agree on that even, if their trust in the climate science itself is rather strong.

People who feel that urgent action is required are right in pushing for that, but they should recognize the reasons others feel genuinely that too much urgency may result in more damage than good.


Comment on Distinguishing the academic from the interface consensus by Berényi Péter

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The relationship at play within academic consensus is one between experts. In the academic world, every scientist/academic is regarded to be an (equal) peer and everyone serves as an authority within his or her field. These people are generally regarded to be on the cutting edge of research and are expected to be among the first to notice changes occurring within their field of expertise. The relationship at play within the interface consensus is one between expert and layman, grasping the interface between science and society. This type entails a relation between expert and layman grounded on authority, trust, and mutual respect, where the actors are not regarded to be on equal (epistemic) footing.

Wait a minute. In each case there is a huge supply of educated laymen, who might not be an experts in that particular field, but may well be one in a neighboring discipline. They can’t do cutting edge research, but can decide perfectly well if methods and basic paradigms are sound in said field or not. Otherwise we would not be able to identify pseudosciences at all.

There is a perfect academic consensus among experts of Homeopathy regarding the effectiveness of endlessly diluted solutions, what is more, they have schools, peer reviewed journals, conferences, etc., they have all attributes &. institutions of a proper science, still, it is bunkum. Not because genuine laymen lack trust or respect and reject authority in this particular case (they often don’t), but because there are meta-experts with even more authority who reject the entire field using the scientific method itself.

The case of climate models is a similar one. You don’t have to be a climate scientist to come to the conclusion, that computational modelling of a single run of a unique physical instance is beyond the realm of science, especially if equations describing the evolution of said system are computationally intractable.

Comment on Week in review by JustinWonder

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Nope. Drove through the Catskills once. Legendary trout fishing.

Comment on Week in review by willard (@nevaudit)

Comment on Week in review by Rob Ellison

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WebHubTelescope | September 22, 2014 at 6:33 am | Reply

Give it up Taz. You have screwed up the explanation and application of B-E statistics so completely on this blog over the last couple of years that you can not be redeemed. All documented. What would be sad is if Curry read your stuff and it gave her the idea to include it in her textbook to describe cloud nucleation.

The schmuck lie. He defines the Planck distribution for blackbodies in terms of a derivation form Bose-Einstein – it isn’t – and then makes an intuitive leap to explain the ‘notch’ as a function of gaps in the emitted frequency spectrum as a result of Bose-Einstein juggling. The sheer incompetence with this person is immense – eccentric blogospheric unscience that we see all too often. Compounded with deliberate misrepresentation, malice, calumny and some deep seated personal sense of inadequacy masked by overweening and quite unwarranted braggadocio.

My ‘documented’ contribution was to say it is not Bose-Einstein juggling. The ‘notch’ is caused by molecules absorbing and subsequently emitting IR photons in all directions. A photon scattering measurable through a space borne instrument viewing through a narrow aperture.

Surely we are bored by now with extreme incompetence and bad faith?

Comment on Week in review by Eddy Turbulence

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Kinda makes policy unnecessary, doesn’t it?

Comment on Week in review by Tonyb

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Willard

Interesting article. I have always believed in energy horses for courses.

Solar may well be a useful adjunct to base load power in some countries but the problem in northern latitude countries such as the uk is two fold.

Firstly our annual sun hour levels are not high. We get 1700 hours in the sw of England where I live, which is just about the sunniest area in the country. The proportion of sun in winter when power is most needed is much lower than in summer and is compounded by falling light levels.

Here we are at vernal equinox and my solar powered lights are getting dimmer and lasting for a short time. In a couple of weeks they won’t work at all.

If solar is to have a place in countries such as ours we need to develop an appropriate energy storage facility .
Tonyb

Comment on Week in review by JustinWonder

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Well said. If the science of climate were the only issue, few people would care. When drastic policy issues are pushed that exacerbate poverty, then many people care. The science is secondary and is used by either side bolster or refute policy recommendations. As Bill Clinton might say, “It’s the policy, stupid”.


Comment on Week in review by Bob

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Me thinks John D might be arrested today after taking a switch to the behinds of his naive heirs.

Comment on Week in review by angech

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PA | September 22, 2014 at 4:18 pm |
. The further the pCO2 in the atmosphere gets from 280 ppm the faster CO2 diffuses into sea water.
Wrong,
eg pCO2 of 180ppm? for instance diffuses much slower. Try the right English, higher not further for a start re pCO2.

Since the diffusion coefficient is significantly dependent on temperature the majority of the diffusion will happen in equatorial waters.
True but not important
off topic WUWT New research has shown that sea ice removes CO2 from the atmosphere.

However the 50% more or less increase in plant growth as we approach 600 ppm will probably have more of an impact in sequestering CO2.

The net carbon in the atmosphere is about 2.5% of the carbon in solution in the ocean, True and thanks for this

so the change in the ocean will be slow. True but irrelevant.

(CO2 can only diffuse from the atmosphere into the ocean at the surface).
True but meaningless

Comment on Week in review by Joseph

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“the catastrophic side of AGW is a hoax. ”

And they believe that scientists know CAGW is hoax?

Comment on Week in review by willard (@nevaudit)

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Comment on Week in review by Fernando Leanme

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Jim2, believe or not I was a process engineer in the 1970’s. The first computer models I learned to run were process simulators. I’ve noticed some nomenclature issues in the industry, some of it driven by the desire to hype the stock.

Condensate can be a really good refinery feed. The condensate from very high pressure and temperature reservoirs can have a chemical composition almost identical to a light crude oil.

Unfortunately the reporting systems don’t give us the detailed chemistry breakdown. So what we see is a blurring of natural gas liquids with condensates. Some operators even try to label them as crude oil. To make matters even more complicated in some jurisdictions the royalties change depending on the way the hydrocarbons are marketed.

In general the prices go up as the hydrocarbons get heavier up to a point. Then they start coming down because the product slate has asphalt and residual fuel oil, which requires cracking and hydrogenation before it can be cycled into the refinery proper.

And indeed watch out for those pesky BOEs. They are used to hype stock value. I think the government is sort of playing along. They want people euphoric and confident so they keep buying Chinese goods and the world economy will hum until reality sinks in.

Comment on Week in review by PA

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The problem with global warming is they got ahead of the science.

14 years ago (when they started tweaking all the numbers) global warmers said if we didn’t take urgent action we were headed off a cliff.

14 years later instead of being in mid air accelerating toward the ground, we are still on the road Sunday driving.

Global warmers make a lot of falsifiable predictions that turn out to be false (Arctic/Antarctic sea ice anyone). They deny a lot of things that are obviously true (CO2 makes plants grow). Don’t do this, it ruins your credibility.

It makes no sense to listen to people who aren’t credible. If the temperature was the 2+°C warmer than 1988 as predicted by Hansen – the conversation would have a completely different tone.

Comment on Week in review by captdallas2 0.8 +/- 0.2

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Joseph, “And they believe that scientists know CAGW is hoax?”

No, not all, but thanks to climategate and the AR4 report issues, like motivational Himalayan glacier melt, some are definitely suspect of having other than scientific motives. Since the light of day has been focused on the science, estimates of sensitivity have been falling. Climate science in general has lost some of the default trustworthiness given “real” science.

I imagine you missed most of that episode? Should be DVD by now.


Comment on Week in review by Fernando Leanme

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Fan, check back in a decade. At that time you will have something much more solid.

Comment on Week in review by angech

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Carrick | September 22, 2014 “The most important issue from a policy perspective is where the additional CO2 is coming from.”
No, It is what the effects of a CO2 rise will do.

Carrick | September 22, 2014 at 4:24 pm |
“Pekka, PA and kim, yes the question of CO2 sinks is a huge issue and a source of major uncertainty about the ramification of further human activity. I don’t think there is any question where it is coming from.”

I don’t think there is any question?
Then why are you responding to it?
Lots of people think there is a question as to where it is coming from. You just spent time arguing against other views as to where it might have come from. Do not say there is no question.
Just say “Its the humans what done it”. That’s what you mean, correct the English as you wish.

For the scientifically literate CO2 in the sea has virtually nothing to do with minor CO2 perturbations in the atmosphere.
The CO2 comes from the minerals in the crust of the earth and dissolves into the sea. It has been this way since seas first formed. There is a source of CO2 in the carbonates in the crust of the earth and a smaller amount of other carbon based minerals that is more or less permanently stable . Put more CO2 in the sea? more carbonate, Heat the sea up more CO2 in the atmosphere.
Plants? Fossil fuels? volcanoes? minor perturbation then back to steady state.

Comment on Week in review by willard (@nevaudit)

Comment on Week in review by Joseph

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<blockquote>It makes no sense to listen to people who aren’t credible. </blockquote> I am wondering if I should find your opinion on the science credible?

Comment on Week in review by Fernando Leanme

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Peter, can we build one of those in Brazzaville?

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