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Comment on President Obama’s Clean Power Plan by Turbulent Eddie

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yes people have suggested it will kill the economy.

Yes, exaggerations come from both those advocating and resisting policies.

Advocates make up all kinds of scare stories that sound plausible but are ridiculous. Opponents make up exaggerated effects about depressions.

The chart above indicates renewables make electricity about three times more expensive, but that’s not the end of the world ( Though Germany, at the top of the list actually has high costs AND increased CO2 emissions – neat trick ). Governments impose obstacles(byzantine tax codes, for example ), and businesses find ways around government obstacles. Then, businesses induce government actions to hammer their competitors.

It’s just all very inefficient and does stiffle growth and inovation. But it does not kill it.


Comment on President Obama’s Clean Power Plan by stevenreincarnated

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I’m glad they have finally pinpointed what causes asthma. It was coal all along. I imagine those lack of exposure to allergins deniers will be properly ostracized from polite company. Have they gone back to adjust the costs of smoking? It appears a 50% reduction in smoking has caused a 100%+ increase in asthma.

Comment on President Obama’s Clean Power Plan by Willard

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> If Justin Trudeau gets in, he’s a dippy yuppy version of Obama and we will following Obama dancing along the daisy strewn path with unicorns and daisies into insanity with the Muslim Brotherhood playing the music for us as we go.

Go, team Denizens!

Comment on President Obama’s Clean Power Plan by Danley Wolfe

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The false claims and false choice rhetorical narratives from the administration is a problem. Lawyers and amicus curiae might debunk this, part of the purpose is to rile up public opinion. There needs to be a timely rebuttal of such distortions and rhetorical propaganda, which is what this really is.

Comment on President Obama’s Clean Power Plan by captdallas2 0.8 +/- 0.3

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wascally wabbit. “No, the best thing would be a carbon tax. Every economist on earth agrees with that. Most agree that the tax should be offset by reductions in other taxes such as social security, medicare, etc. ”

Yeah, Yeah, that’s the ticket. Tax carbon to reduce SS and medicare so the minions can pay for Obamacare while we end global asthma and save the “average” electric customer 85 bucks in the process. Next up an organic chicken in every pan.

Comment on Week in review – energy and policy edition by genghiscunn

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The Telegraph has a lengthy obituary of historian Robert Conquest, best known for his many books on the Soviet Union. CR readers might connect with this sentence:

“In his last two works, Reflections on a Ravaged Century (1999) and The Dragons of Expectation: Reality and Delusion in the Course of History (2004), Conquest drew on decades of historical study to trace how seductive ideas have come to corrupt modern minds to often disastrous effect and discuss why and how people could have been so blind to what was going on.”

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/obituaries/11782719/Robert-Conquest-historian-obituary.html

Comment on President Obama’s Clean Power Plan by Willard

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> A carbon tax is a stupid idea that wouldn’t solve the problem, and would make a host of new problems.

That explains why economists agree with it.

Go team!

Comment on President Obama’s Clean Power Plan by bedeverethewise

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A limit of 20 per day would be a great idea, it would certainly slow down the professionals.


Comment on President Obama’s Clean Power Plan by -1=e^iπ

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“We know that any theory of global warming predicting a warming rate of anything more than 1.7C per century is contraindicated by observations”

How does that make sense? You don’t think the rate of warming will increase over time even though the rate of change of radiative forcing will?

Comment on President Obama’s Clean Power Plan by John F. Hultquist

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There is an interesting article
“Something in the Air” by Melissa Pandika
Much about the work of Kari Nadeau
Discover Mag: September 2015
Central CA valley towns
pollution is mostly from diesel exhaust from trucks, cars, tractors

Comment on President Obama’s Clean Power Plan by Ragnaar

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I don’t suppose the theory that the sensitivity is lower would suffice as an alternate theory. How is the theory of high sensitivity doing these days?

Comment on President Obama’s Clean Power Plan by nickels

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Redistribution piece:
“Monday evening, government and industry continued to pore over the hefty, 1,560-page document. Based on initial gleanings, Wolk said some favorable elements include the flexibility granted to the states to achieve the emissions targets, the ability for interstate and intrastate trading of energy credits, and an incentive for renewable energy and energy efficiency efforts that benefit economically disadvantaged communities.”

Colorado likes State Rights :)

“Several states sued to stop the plan as it was proposed last year. Colorado Attorney General Cynthia Coffman, citing concerns about potential job losses and an unrealistic set of goals and timelines, on Monday said she may join them.”

http://www.denverpost.com/business/ci_28578987/clean-power-plan-wants-colorado-cut-co2-emissions

Comment on President Obama’s Clean Power Plan by Vaughan Pratt

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When wishing for accelerated plant growth, be careful what you wish for. Recent studies have shown that CO2 strongly stimulates production of certain allergens such as those produced by poison ivy and ragweed.

Poison ivy:

http://www.pnas.org/content/103/24/9086.full

“In this 6-year study at the Duke University Free-Air CO2 Enrichment experiment, we show that elevated atmospheric CO2 in an intact forest ecosystem increases photosynthesis, water use efficiency, growth, and population biomass of poison ivy. The CO2 growth stimulation exceeds that of most other woody species. Furthermore, high-CO2 plants produce a more allergenic form of urushiol. ”

Ragweed:

http://www.chgeharvard.org/sites/default/files/resources/pollen_wayne_epsteinpdf.pdf

“Objective: To study the direct impact of rising atmospheric CO2 concentrations on ragweed (Ambrosia artemisiifolia L.) pollen production and growth. Results: A doubling of the atmospheric CO2 concentration stimulated ragweed-pollen production by 61% (P = 0.005).”

More about asthma and ragweed allergy here:

http://asthmaandallergies.org/asthma-allergies/ragweed-allergy/

It is striking that in neither the original post nor the 247 responses thus far, not even the slightest mention been made of these widely publicized studies in this thread. Instead the thread seems dedicated to denying the existence of any possible causal connection between CO2 and allergens.

Evidently Climate Etc. has a knee-jerk response to any suggestion that rising CO2 may be hazardous to human health, namely “rubbish”. I therefore see no alternative to simply discounting Climate Etc. as merely yet another pseudo-scientific climate blog.

Comment on President Obama’s Clean Power Plan by justinwonder

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Horst,

Skunk will only get better with global warming! You know that!

Comment on President Obama’s Clean Power Plan by Joel Williams

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Entered this following in the microgrid topic at a time when posters were very active. Seems appropriate to tonyb’s mention of charcoal initiating the bronze age.
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Readers might find a “column” by my friend John Bartlit, who worked at Los Alamos National Lab, “enlightening” about the rise and fall of energy technologies and the ingenuity of the human race and industries in adapting to the necessary changes. It will be interesting to see how future generations cope with their problems. Most of us, of course, will never know. In fact, it would be of interest to know just how many of those posting of “Climate, Etc” would even make it to 2050! Not likely that I will.

http://www.lamonitor.com/content/illumination-risky


Comment on President Obama’s Clean Power Plan by Horst Graben (@Graben_Horst)

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Vaughn Pratt: Thanks for your addition of psuedo-science to the blog mix.

OK, increasing CO2 = more pollen, etc. We can stipulate that there has been an increase in pollen per plant due to CO2.

Of course, these increases are minor compared to increases due to landuse changes and the international transport of plant species. I’m am shocked and appalled you didn’t cite the world famous study below that shows that the problem with increasing asthma is multi-factorial across numerous dimensions, with CO2 being but a minor player.

http://www.aacijournal.com/content/pdf/1710-1492-4-3-130.pdf

Your particular brand of psuedo-scientific conclusions leads to straining at gnats while letting camel’s pass. This can be actually worse than the denizens do-nothing brand of psuedo-science because of the lost opportunity costs of adaptation.

Comment on President Obama’s Clean Power Plan by climatereason

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Willard

Warning. Question being posed…

Are you suggesting the economists should be seen as a source of authority?

‘During a briefing by academics at the London School of Economics on the turmoil on the international markets the Queen asked: “Why did nobody notice it?”

Professor Luis Garicano, director of research at the London School of Economics’ management department, had explained the origins and effects of the credit crisis when she opened the £71 million New Academic Building.’

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/theroyalfamily/3386353/The-Queen-asks-why-no-one-saw-the-credit-crunch-coming.html

tonyb

Comment on President Obama’s Clean Power Plan by climatereason

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Joel

Thanks for that.

Gaining access to Britain’s mineral wealth to improve their ability to create metals was one of the reasons for the Roman invasion of Britain.

Julius Caesar, father of the Industrial Revolution…

tonyb

Comment on President Obama’s Clean Power Plan by beththeserf

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Hmph, anuther of them Great Leap Forwards that
aren’t!

The Clean power Plan will :
# Cost more in energy because renewables are
demonstrably inefficient. In Oz, fer example,
carbon abatement, (minimal) through wind energy
costs $50-$100 ton.

# Lose real jobs in a false and fading economy.

# Impose on people’s liberties from above with
authoritarian activist large scale policy leaps
that control human options.

#I increase taxes, squandering the people’s
money based on visionary utopian (diistopian)
projections.

# Weaken a former great democracy by bleeding
the economy and trammeling human innovation.

# Make the US and free world less safe in a world
of significant international threats

…Not healthy.

Comment on President Obama’s Clean Power Plan by Steven Mosher

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“I don’t suppose the theory that the sensitivity is lower would suffice as an alternate theory. How is the theory of high sensitivity doing these days?”

current theory allows for values from about 1.5 to 6.

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