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Comment on Foxes, Hedgehogs and Prediction by Bart R

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As a reference point — if only I could find the reference — it has been asserted that there is a detectible somewhat less than 1% variation in tectonic activity correlated to lunar (distance and) position.

The tidal pull of the moon produces somewhat more than 15 cm rise in sea level, and tidal pull itself on the mantle must be at least as great as that on the oceans in some measure, so it is likely that the tidal effect is some orders of magnitude greater than any current weight of ocean due climate effect.

As oceans are much nearer to the mantle than is the moon, though the difference in weight between oceans a century or more ago and now are vanishingly small compared to the mass of the moon, the inverse square of distance implies not just the weight but also the pull of oceans (like the pull of the moon) could be a factor. Still, it has to be tiny.

So, could global climate shifts resulting in redistribution of the weight of the waters in the seas also result in tectonic changes?

The odds are strongly against this being significant, perhaps astronomically so; however, they are not zero if the lunar correlation to tectonic activities is verifiable.

As the odds are not zero, and there are so many uncertainties, this remains in interesting intellectual puzzle especially due the immense costs involved.

Any puzzlers want to take on the challenges of scoping weight and effect of moon vs weight and effect of water, and finding the lunar-tectonic correlations research for reference, might be edutaining.


Comment on Foxes, Hedgehogs and Prediction by Peter317

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Come on Fred, we’re disappearing down the rabbit hole here. Sorry, but it’s just absurd.

Comment on Reasoning about floods and climate change by David Wojick

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Bart, how can you “jettison opinion for evidence” when evidence is a matter of opinion? You sound like Fred, who seems to think that evidence is a measureable thing, independent of human interpretation. In complex cases like AGW, the weight of evidence is in the eye of the beholder. Fred and I look at the same evidence and come to opposite conclusions, or so it seems.

Comment on Foxes, Hedgehogs and Prediction by huxley

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Fred M: Count me in with maxwell. “I don’t know,” “I doubt it” or “It’s not really significant” would all have been better answers.

The oceans average ~3000 meters deep. Sea level has been rising ~1.8 mm/year for the past century. Since 1993 it’s been measured at 2.9 mm/year, so chalk up 1 mm/year to global warming. Call it a couple of extra centimeters of sea level due to AGW. So we are talking about an increase of less than 1/10,000 sea depth as a cause for the earthquake.

To me this is like arguing for gun control because an extra homicide in the US could trigger World War III.

I think that there are serious arguments for concern about ACC, but this is not one of them. To the extent that ACC scientists and advocates tug their chins and intone that ACC could be the cause for almost every negative event imaginable makes them look credulous and desperate.

Comment on Foxes, Hedgehogs and Prediction by Fred Moolten

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Bart – Regarding your comment, the following
excerpts are from an article by Kasahara, entitled Tides, Earthquakes, and Volcanoes, which appeared in Science 297:38-349, 2002

The elastic strain resulting from Earth tides is extremely small, on the order of 10−8, which seems too small to trigger earthquakes and volcanism (2). Nevertheless, the idea that tides may influence these geophysical events has been discussed since 1930, when an interesting earthquake sequence was observed during an earthquake swarm east of Ito on the Izu Peninsula, central Japan.

The effects of tides on submarine volcanism were not observed until the summer of 1994, when the U.S. Navy Sound Surveillance System (SOSUS) array identified intense earthquake activity around Axial Volcano on the Juan de Fuca Ridge (11). The ridge is located about 400 to 800 km west to southwest off the western coast of North America. The data showed a clear correlation between tidal change and earthquake activities on two occasions (1, 12).

The Ito swarm was thought to be related to volcanism, although magma was not identified at the time. Nasu et al. (3) observed that for several days, the hourly numbers of earthquakes were higher during low tide than during high tide. They suggested that the swarm was triggered by the ocean tide, but did not offer a convincing triggering mechanism.

But at least one other example of semidiurnal variation in earthquake swarm activity was detected near Ito in 1978 (4). Analysis of stress due to ocean loading effects suggested a strong influence of ocean tides.

By themselves the tidal forces are too small to generate earthquakes, but in the critical stage of faulting they can trigger volcanic earthquakes.

Comment on Reasoning about floods and climate change by Chief Hydrologist

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Fred has an unfortunate adversarial style, leaps in and then modifies a narrative as he proceeds, is adept at subtle slights, refuses to admit to any error in interpretation and must have the last word. It makes it difficult to explore topics openly and collaboratively.

I started with this comment – thinking about hydrology as global means glosses over a great deal and there is really a lot that we don’t understand.

‘Despite their obvious environmental and societal importance, our understanding of the causes and magnitude of the variations of the hydrological cycle is still unsatisfactory (e.g., Ramanathan et al 2001, Ohmura and Wild 2002, Allen and Ingram 2002, Allan 2007, Wild et al 2008, Liepert and Previdi (2009).’

Uncertainty is the case for radiosonde data – especially above 500mb and with older instruments. See for instance http://www.cosmic.ucar.edu/related_papers/1991_elliot_radiosondes.pdf

How accurate is the decrease in relative humidity – I don’t know. Here is an evaluation of wet and dry bias. http://ams.confex.com/ams/91Annual/flvgateway.cgi/id/16765?recordingid=16765

The Minschwaner and Dessler study is convincing on declining relative humidity over some of the same period. There is no theoretical necessity for constant relative humidity – it is simply a convenience for modellers. ‘There are several plausible mechanisms for creating a negative water vapor feedback in the UT (see, e.g.,the review by Held and Soden 2000). One oft-cited mechanism invokes the drying effects of deep cumulus convection…’ (M and D, 2004) However, there does not seem to be an actual negative feedback – just not as positive as assumed.

But it varies over land and ocean, regionally and temporally. The discussion in this paper is very balanced – http://iopscience.iop.org/1748-9326/5/2/025203

Comment on Reasoning about floods and climate change by Chief Hydrologist

Comment on UK SciTech peer review inquiry by Punksta

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What sounds right headed is to compete with Science and Nature.

How are they funded?


Comment on Pondering the Arctic Ocean. Part I: Climate Dynamics by curryja

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Steven, I do not align myself with any tribe. I ackowledge few actual “facts” in all this; there is ambiguous evidence and much uncertainty.

Comment on Pondering the Arctic Ocean. Part I: Climate Dynamics by harold Pierce Jr

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Prof Curry

Go get recent atlas of the earth. After a short study of the atlas, you will come to these conclusions:

1. There are few humans on the earth.

2. Humans occupy a small fraction of the earth’s surface.

3. Humans have permanently modified a quite small fraction of the earth’s surface by construction of cities and urban areas, highways, dams, harbors, etc.

4. About 50% of humans live in cities and urban areas.

5. Most major cities are located near coasts or large bodies of water.

6. Humans are moving in ever increasing numbers to urban areas.

7. The majority of humans live in poveerty.

FYI: The surface area of Canada is about 6 trillion acres upon which reside about 33 million humans, i.e., the country is unpopulated by humanss. Ditto for Siberia.

I don’t want to read or hear any foolish comments that humans are causing “global warming” or “climate change”because it is just not physically possible.

Comment on Reasoning about floods and climate change by Bart R

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Chief

To clarify, how many G&T’s are we talking here?

Comment on Pondering the Arctic Ocean. Part I: Climate Dynamics by DeNihilist

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LOL Harry!

How about, take a couple hundred Anthrax bacteria. introduce these into a human body. Blah-blah-blah….the body is uninhabitated by this bacteria. Therefore I do not want to read or hear that humans “die” or get “crippled” by anthrax, because it is just not physically possible!
:)

Comment on Pondering the Arctic Ocean. Part I: Climate Dynamics by DeNihilist

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Sharper, it is all natural. Whether it be a species puking CO2 into the atmosphere for its’ betterment, or volcanoes spewing a brew of toxicities, there is nothing that occurs that is un-nature-all.

Comment on Pondering the Arctic Ocean. Part I: Climate Dynamics by Tom Fuller

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There is certainly no shortage of skeptics here. Perhaps their appreciation of this site and frequent visits can be attributed to the somewhat frosty reception they receive elsewhere.

However, there are plenty of non-skeptics here as well. It’s what is called in polite circles a ‘conversation.’ It seems new to you because it is forbidden on the weblogs you normally visit, such as CP, RC, ad tedium.

Comment on Pondering the Arctic Ocean. Part I: Climate Dynamics by Coalsoffire

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Sharper00 says:
“Of course. Simultaneously we don’t know enough about the past to say anything odd is happening yet the past is certain enough to say nothing odd is happening.”

What do we know about the Arctic ice. It has been greater, it has been less. We are not at the top or the bottom of whatever cycles are in play. And those cycles have played out over and over without the help of man. So we make some observations that are consistent with what we know, and you choose to call it odd. How odd.


Comment on Pondering the Arctic Ocean. Part I: Climate Dynamics by DeNihilist

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Iananesh, too funny! You go on about how D’ers only say half truths. Well what about you? Almost all Cons whom I have spoken to do not have a problem with the concept that temps are rising. Got that? TEMPS ARE RISING!

Now show me why this is bad, O.K>???????

Comment on Pondering the Arctic Ocean. Part I: Climate Dynamics by Jim S

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Fred,
Thanks for your thoughtfull reply. However, my question was largely Socratic in nature. I was responding to Idunno’s list (not mine) of “possible” observations in an attempt to illustrate Popper’s point that a propositional statement that attempts to explain everything , in fact, explains nothing. Thus, when one is told that global warming will both increase and decrease snow fall and both increase and decrease precipitationn, etc. it’s a good indicator that the propositionall statement has been framed incorrectly. If you put forth a propositoin you must also define under what conditions it can be shown to be false.

Comment on Pondering the Arctic Ocean. Part I: Climate Dynamics by R. Gates

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You have made an error of logic. Identical effects do not have to have identical causes. If my drapes move at night, it could be becasue I left the window open and the wind is blowing them or it could be because my cat is walking behind them, or it could be a combination of those reasons (the wind blew the drapes and the cat decided it would make an interesting play toy). So too, Global Climate Models have all consistently shown a decline in year-to-year Arctic Sea ice to be one of the consequences of the 40% greater amount of CO2 that we have now versus the 1700′s. It could be the interglacial, it could be CO2, or it could be some combination thereof.

Comment on UK SciTech peer review inquiry by Bruce Cunningham

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“Gillies’ words apply not only to scientific peer review but also to engineering practice in many cases. I’ve watched many a brilliant engineering solution deep-sixed because it was “different”

“Many times bad solutions were adopted, not because they were worth having, but because of who did the design. ”

You must have worked some of the places that I have! ;)

Comment on Pondering the Arctic Ocean. Part I: Climate Dynamics by GaryM

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“stern rebukes and hurt confusion?”

As a conservative skeptic, I probably disagree with Dr. Curry on most political issues, and I think the claims of AGW are even more uncertain than she does. However, my comments here have never been deleted or edited, and Dr. Curry has answered courteously and respectfully when I have asked her questions directly.

This is clearly a foreign concept to some. Speaking like an adult to those who disagree with you is seen as a weakness for the true believers. They see everybody yelling at each other on TV talking head shows, and their heroes teach them that ridicule is the proper response to disagreement. Condescending snide remarks are thought the epitome of wit. Each sheep in the flock gets to fancy himself a wolf, as long as he disdains the heretics loudly enough.

Well, that’s OK. They will need their self-satisfied egos to keep them company as they sink into political irrelevance.

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